Building World-Class Networks and Mastering Sportsmanship

Yeah, if I look at some of the best athletes in the world, those who are very comfortable in their skin, you you just see a different level of relaxation. But when they're performing and I think afterwards impress and everything like that, I think it's almost like a humbleness where they they understand that they're brilliant at what they do, but that doesn't make them special people. It makes them special in their field. And you know, you know, I say this often, if I'm I'll, I don't want Roger Federer showing up as my doctor.

I want a good doctor.

Nick, it's a it's a pleasure to have you on the show. And I'm, I'm, you know, really glad to have you. And also, I think you, you've been involved in sport and you have a son playing tennis and you kind of know what that journey looks like. Plus you're an entrepreneur who's been very successful and you have your own podcast as well. So we'll put that in the show notes. But I'm really excited to talk to you about all things kind of sport and business. So I'm also very interested to to Share your story with the listeners.

So if if you could just give people a, a background as to where you started, how this all evolved snapshot of your life. I know it's quite difficult to do that, but I'm sure you can. Sure. No. Well, delighted to be here, Dave. Thanks for asking me on the show. And I know our paths have crossed for many years now, but you know, yes, delighted to to be on your podcast. Background. I was born in a suburb of Manchester in 1974 and I suppose I've never really strayed too far from that place that shaped me, you know, growing up northern lad in a northern city, I attended a local comprehensive school.

I suppose it was the kind of place that teaches as much about people as it does about books. I want to think back to my childhood, you know. I suppose we all do, you know, you think back and it's through rose tinted glasses. But I remember, you know, I was playing out with my mates morning till night. There was love and laughter in the house for sure. And I suppose looking back, the sun seems to always shine. Oh, and Manchester United did always win the FA Cup every May as well as football was my my first love as a kid and I came from a squash playing family.

So I played squash from a very early age, the age of five, probably a first picked up a racket. And I didn't really get into tennis until secondary school. My football coach there, he he taught tennis in the summer. So we introduced the football team to tennis. And when my hand died, skills from squash, I took to it straight away and loved it. I only played for the school teams and my local club, you know, watching the likes of Becca, Sam Price, Agassi, Edberg as I grew up. It's it, it really hooked me in it from an early age.

And I think from a business perspective, I suppose I've always been interested in people and the wider world and had this, well this fascination I suppose, of that led me to the University of Manchester. After secondary school, I studied geology there and, you know, I suppose I could have ended up spending my life reading rocks, but as it turned out, I ended up reading people and businesses, which is a hell of a lot more interesting. Manchester always been my home. It's where Matt Ray, my wife, we married in 2001 and you know, we we now live in in the countryside, but here in in South Manchester, 17 century farmhouse.

Our two dogs compete for our attention with our two sons and we're a we're a tennis mad family. I introduced both my sons to the sport at an early age. I think Oliver probably picked up a rack at the age of four. I'd probably say my youngest, Casper, he maybe was more natural and maybe that's because he was born around the sport. You know, he was always raised around the sport because Oliver was already playing. He's four years his senior. But it was Oliver who progressed furthest. He rose to be a top ten junior player in the in the country, made junior Wimbledon Casper's played at county level, but and still plays locally, But it's it's Oliver that's carving his path in the in the states now with a tennis scholarship at William and Mary Casper.

He he's he's got his competitive streak on the football pitch now. Love all racket sports, squash, tennis, paddle hiking whenever I can. You know, we're, we're definitely a family that thrives on physical and mental challenge. And a bit of background on my business career, my professional life began in 98 where with my dad, we founded a company called B2B international. It was a small, it was three of us small market research venture and and I learnt everything from the ground up in those early days, you know, the art of telephone interviewing, the science of data analysis and and over time, you know, grew into a specialism of of customer experience and branding.

And so selling research. It turned out, you know, I didn't know what I wanted to be in in life. I definitely didn't think I'd be a market researcher all my life, but turned out to be a crafter. I enjoyed, you know, this combination of trust and building relationships inside curiosity and B to B international grew into something far larger than I could have imagined. And in 2016, I set into the role of chairman, steered the company through new opportunities, global expansion and then the 18 I let the negotiation that saw our company join the Japanese multinational media company that is dense to.

So that was a a major milestone, one that marked an ending for what we created over over the years, over 20 plus years, but also a new beginning. And then by 2024, after more than 25 years in business, I decided it was time to step away, explore New Horizons. And, and that was the, the year that I launched the world's greatest business thinkers podcast. So born out of lifelong curiosity of what drives success, what drives innovation, and, you know, looking for the best leadership qualities. And over the past, it's probably past 18 months now, I've had the privilege of interviewing over 40 of the world's most inspiring minds, each conversation being a master class and a reminder that learning never stops.

And neither does that pursuit of, you know, excellence and understanding people, businesses and the ideas that shape them. So I suppose it to bring it all together. If it's looking back on my life, the Manchester roots, family, sport, curiosity, enjoying discovery and travel, they've woven into something that I could have never planned really. I mean, from, from geology in the early days through to business psychology data and local beginnings to global conversations. It's probably, I feel like I'm just getting started actually in the fact that I've fallen in love with another racket sport paddle.

So I'm, I'm doing the podcast and I'm also creating this new paddle brand, paddle specific apparel brand, which is launching later in in 2026. Brilliant. So a very lively mind, which is great, and obviously sport has impacted your life and one of the character traits that you feel like you've taken from sport into life and business. Yeah, sport has been everything for me. I love all sports. And I mean my squash career, it didn't reach the heights of my son's tennis careers. I made the Cheshire County training team but never made final team selection.

But a lot of learnings have have been taken from sport, for example. Well, I suppose understanding failure in sport allowed me to to reframe failure as as data to learn from, you know, and therefore refine and and build on for the future. But you know, more than most of tennis is a brutal sport. He's recited many times these days, but you know, Federer only 154% of his 1500 and odd matches. So you need to get used to not winning all the time and, and in business, you face a lot of setbacks, whether it's from losing a pitch with a potential client, losing one of your, your members of staff.

And we all know how important people are the most important asset of any companies. As long as you, you can look back on on history, help you make different decisions next time and and don't let that disappointment fester for too long, then it's an invaluable experience. I've I've built a business through three recessions gonethroughthe.com bubble in 2001, the financial crisis 2007 and and then COVID in 2020. And in sport, you need to have that open mindset and be adaptable to change with contingency plans.

And so it is in business, you know, you need to be flexible. Use your strategy. Your strategy should have things you know that you're able to change and and pivot and adjust should should the need arise. I think maybe maybe the most notable trade, it's taught me is, is hard work and consistency, though I think there's a lot to be said about just, you know, showing up every day, putting in the hours, especially in the early days of of me setting up my agency, that there's no such thing as as overnight success, whether it's in business or sport.

And I think, yeah, maybe to use the example of Oliver, you know, when people saw he he'd, you know, qualified to play the junior Wimbledon at Roehampton, He they were congratulating him and also getting his scholarship to the States. But they just didn't see the hard graft he was putting in since the age of eight, training four nights a week, going to the gym for going catching up with friends or parties because he was competing or travelling a lot of weekends. And is it, I think well, a lot of people have said this, but Gary Player once I didn't see the harder I practice, the lucky I get and I fully back the results come on the back of consistent hard work and and that preparation and and persistence as well.

Yeah, and I think moving on from disappointment is a huge thing. You know, if people don't know how to lose, I think it's very difficult for them to win. Because if you can't accept losing, then as you said, it festers and it affects everything you do going forward until you let it go. And, and I think, you know, the best tennis players are so good at it, they, they can pretty much let it go after each point and genuinely do that, which is why they're so good. Because I mean, every player is attempting to do that, but not that many are successful at letting every point go.

And, and I think the the other thing that is helpful is when you miss an opportunity, really top class people immediately start looking for the next opportunity. Yeah. Because they don't, you know, so miss the break point, right? Work to make another, work to make another, miss ten. Well, just work to make another. And so I think that's that's also important to always, you know, work to make the next opportunity. It doesn't matter how many you've missed good stuff and what what inspires you to get up in the morning and do what you do?

I mean, I think you've already alluded to this curiosity and everything like that, but is there anything, you know, existential or whatever that inspires you to do what you do? Well, I mean, I, I realize I've been incredibly lucky and especially, I suppose because I love what I do in there for it. I've enjoyed the journey and I don't know whether this is recorded for video as well, Dave, but you'll be able to see behind me. There's there's lots and lots of books, you know, so I. In there. It's in there, it's in there, you know, it's in there.

And I read, I read lots of books, you know, for, for the, the podcast especially. And one of my favourites is Atomic Habits by James Clairney. He argues that focusing only on goals you you know you leave you leaves you feeling empty when you reach you know that that particular goal because it's just an outcome is is not right. I don't know if. You know, I don't know if you know this stat, but I think it's something ridiculous. Like 70% of medallists at the Olympics get depressed after the Olympics because they've reached that pinnacle, that goal.

And then it's like they really struggle with what's next. Again, not looking to make that next opportunity. And, and I think there's, you know, a lot of mileage in helping them prepare for what happens if you are successful and you do get the medal. But anyway, sorry, that's just an aside. I interrupted. No, absolutely, absolutely. And well, I mean, I mean you do need that North Star to aim for. Oh, yes, yeah. When when growing, for example, my podcast, I just, you know, I wanted to get the best business minds on the show and I just built it one episode at a time.

Loved the journey, you know, and initial stages, of course, I had no followers at all on, on my YouTube channel and now I've got nearly 100,000 subscribers, but and it's built some momentum, but I just it's the process. I enjoyed booking the guests, reading the books, puts in the questions together and and then of course, the the end result interviewing some of the best business minds in the world. But I think it's one of the books behind me actually. You'll definitely read it, but it's, you know, Andre Agassi talks about it in open, doesn't he?

He talks about the fact that failure and success is just this illusion. And he recalls when he, he got to world number one the first time in 95 and he, he thought that'd make him happy. Never felt so empty in all his life. And he fell to 141 in the world and disillusioned. And, and then he just started setting daily goals and realizing, you know, you can only control what you can control. And just being present and connected in this current world is, is so important. And, and of course, then he went on to probably play some of the best tennis in his career and rose back to, to world #1 again.

So I think, yeah, it's, it's yes, you do need your North Star. But I think just making sure that you do enjoy what you do. And yeah, and therefore I am, I do feel very lucky in what I do do. Yeah, I think, I think, I think it's really difficult to do extraordinary things if you don't love what you're doing. Because doing anything extraordinarily well takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of work. And it's that's hell if you don't enjoy it, it really is, because you're putting so much time and effort into something.

And if you don't enjoy it, I question the ability to have longevity. If your motive is purely a goal and you don't enjoy any or very little of what it takes to get to that goal. I think, you know, I mean, the Agassi was quite a good example. It seems like, you know, initially he did it more for his father and for different reasons, not for himself and thought he didn't love the sport. But with a bit of time away and and reflection, he just realized he was playing for the wrong reasons. And when he when he got that right, his love for the sport was actually there.

Yeah, 100. Percent. I don't think he realized how much he loved the sport even when even when he hated it. Yeah, cool. Who or what has influenced you, amaze you, or taught you something that has been very, very valuable? I realized that that list will be probably pretty long, and the longer you live, the longer that list gets. But if you had to single out one or two events or people or books you've read or whatever that that have really, really influenced you as a person. Well, I, I've, yeah, again, I've been lucky to to rub shoulders with some of the greatest business thinkers to ever live.

And I've grown a company as well from just three of us in Manchester to be in this global company that had offices all around the world, employed over 120 people. So I've had some amazing work colleagues, clients along last journey. But I think the two people that have really shaped my life have have got to be my dad and my wife. I mean my dad, he taught me all I know in business and rode on his coattails for 20 plus years. And some people used to say to me, how can you work with your old man? I loved every minute.

They said, oh, I couldn't do that with my dad, but I feel privileged. I got to spend a lot of time with him over the years. And we travelled the world building the company, building the legacy that still stands today, even though the two of us have moved away from the company. And you know, a big part of that, that's what I've got to say, my wife, because behind every successful man is a woman. And that we've been married to 25 years this year. I definitely couldn't have done what I've done in in my career.

I didn't race. She she helped me not only managing the home, bringing up the boys, juggling her career at the time, as well as being there to offer support and views. You know, when I'd had a tough day at the office and came home after it all. So I think it would have to be those two people. That's great. You know, and family, I think ultimately is the most important thing and to get to share your business life with your dad actually is it is a privilege. I mean, I know I left South Africa at 17 to go on scholarship to America and, and, and play tennis.

It, it was funny. I, I never went back to live there. And it's only when you have kids yourself that you realize how tough that must have been for my parents. And I left at a time where it was incredibly expensive to fly, especially from South Africa to New, you know, to New York, which was the only entrance point from South Africa. And because of sanctions against it during the apartheid era, flights couldn't go over Africa. So they had to go through by an island. And I'll desal. And so it was it was expensive.

We had these, you know, reverse trunk calls to speak to my parents, which would be literally once a month because they were so expensive. I remember it was $9 a minute to speak to them. So, you know, you weren't going to have a long, long conversation or whatever. So it was a quick, a quick check in and, you know, I went away for for two years. So I did my first two years in college before I went back for a holiday. And then it was years, years later, my parents were on a visit here to the UK. And that's a that's a story itself because I played a lot of cricket and tennis.

And OK, I remember, yeah. And I remember sitting with my parents and I kind of had to choose between the two sports. And I was like 1415 at the time. And I remember them saying to me, look, you play tennis, play tennis. You can go to America, you can get a scholarship to a university there. But if you play cricket to make a living, you're going to have to go live in that shit country, England. And you don't want to do that. And of course, they had been over in the 70s and stuff with all strikes and, and, you know, really didn't see England in a good light at all.

And ironically, I ended up living, living here for, for such a long time. So that, that, that, that's just an aside. But my mother said to me after my dad had died that, you know, he always harbored. I hope that maybe I'd come back and live there and work with him, but really, right I I never actually knew that. Yeah, no, it's, it's, well, no, I, I have, I've been privileged. I spending time, like you say, with family. And that's why I've loved tennis as well. You know, the journey with Oliver as he, as he grew up, you know, travelling around Europe, playing tennis Europe and then, you know, onto ITF.

And it's, it's been good to spend time with him, as I did with, with my dad. But I'll, I'll have to pick your brains, Dave, because I've never been to, to South Africa, but I'm heading there this summer. So the four of us. So yeah. You'll have a fabulous time. It's an amazing place for, for a holiday. My next question to you is, you know when when you have to make decisions are really under pressure. What processes do you go through to make a a big decision under pressure? And I and I assume selling your company was a pretty big decision.

Yeah, it was it, It definitely was. I mean, it's you, baby, that you grow with us and it's so you know, you, you've, you've, you've created something, the culture that sits behind it, the brand and everything else. It was a tough decision that, but it was also the right decision at the right time. You know, I'm, I wanted to expand further and we had officers on the East Coast of the states. We were in China, in Germany, but I wanted to go bigger and I wanted to go onto the West Coast of the states, wanted to go to Singapore, you know, gets get more.

So I was looking to expand quite quickly as opposed to organically, because that's how we'd grown that the previous 20 years. And, and so it was the right time. And, you know, choosing choose of that investor that came along. The, there was a few that we could choose from, but Densu was definitely the right one, the to, to marry our, our vision and, and their vision and, and, and what they brought to the table too. But I think, well, I think in terms of making decisions, it's, it's always easy to jump to immediate conclusions under pressure.

So in the heat of the moment, well, at sports especially, but also in business, definitely take a step back, take a breather, give yourself time to to think and prevent from making those impulsive reactions, especially in business. You might not be able to do that on the tennis court the same. And I think in business, what Jeff Bezos talks of a a one way and two day, two way double model. I don't know whether you've you've heard of that before though, but I always think that's useful to make decisions and the way he distinguishes between irreversible decisions that the one way does.

And for these decisions, yes, you need to be sure of the decision, slow down, be more deliberate. Whereas the two way door decisions are reversible decisions and you know, you can make those quickly even without all the relevant information. I think, I think as a business owner, staying calm under pressure, but looking at the bigger picture, there's a, there's a model called the the 10/10/10 rule, which has been useful for me when developing my company's strategy over the years. And if you need to make a decision, look at it, how it, it might affect you in the next 10 minutes, say, you know, is it really going to impact you in that way or a more medium term, your next 10 months or looking longer term in the next 10 years?

And it allows you to stand back and just think about the ramifications. Yeah, exactly of your, your decision, how comfortable you are in making it. And it also allows you to prioritize decisions and, you know, whether they're urgent or not. So that's, that's always been helpful over the years. Great. What's the most fun thing about your work now? Well, now, I mean, when I ran my agency in the pre COVID world, I got to travel the world, experienced lots of fabulous different cultures. Well, while doing the work and and it was all at the expense of my clients.

So I enjoyed that, but I've left that behind now. So I suppose it's gotta be that specific with the podcast. It's about speaking with some of those most prestigious business thinkers in the world. I've had all the likes of Damping, Roger Martin, Gary Hamill, and they've all, well, in fact, Mark Ritson as well. I, I've seen those in my early business career on stage at events and, and conferences and, and, and read their books. And I never really thought that I'd have my own show in these people that are lauded, you know, and, and hundreds, thousands of followers sold hundreds of thousands of books and that they're then guests on my show.

I think maybe so. So that's definitely one of the fun things that there's a book in the background there by Philip Cutler. He's now 94 years old. He's still bright and sharp as anything, but he's written over 90 books. He's known as the father of modern marketing and he he popularized the four PS: model, product price promotion and and place framework. And I first read his book Marketing Management when I started out in business. And that version on the the shelf there is a 16th edition because, you know, he wrote the first one in the late 60s and how the world's changed over that time.

So I think speaking to someone like Philip Cutler, who was is just, you know, I suppose even Benton marketing that we know today really has been, you know, one of those joys of running the podcast. Brilliant. And what's the common myth or piece of bad advice that you you get here in your field? A common piece of bad advice that seems to float around in your world well. Going back to my previous existence, my business was, it was a market research agency. And I would always argue that any successful company you need to be market orientated.

You know, you need to whether it's a product, whether it's a service, if it doesn't meet the needs of the market, then you're not going to be very successful. And I think that that that common myth, sometimes it used to be played by that people often recite Steve Jobs when arguing against relying on traditional market research because he said people don't know what they want until you show it to them. And he was always about, you know, creating innovative and intuitive products. And he he sometimes referenced the faster horse analogy where, you know, Henry Ford once said if I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse as opposed to, you know, dreaming up the groundbreaking innovation of the automobile.

What's wrong that's? Easy when you invent the iPhone yeah, you know, I mean, you know, the The thing is, is I think I think his model only works if if you if you have the genius to invent something that people that didn't exist and that people can can use and stuff like that. I think in most other products or or services are out there already. You just got a twist on it and and then I'm not sure that just making it or when or putting it out there is going to kind of work unless, unless you market.

Well, yeah. And it's, it is, it is a myth and it's wrong because my company did and still does work for Apple. So they, they, they do carry out market research. I've carried out research for them. Yes, sometimes if you do ask the customer what they want, they can't always articulate it, but they, that there are many tools in the tool research toolbox that you can use observation, market testing, get that real feedback. And, and also, you know, giving a, a respondent some context of what is feasible and seeing what the reaction is.

So in fact, my latest guests on on the podcast right now is Guy Kawasaki, who was a chief evangelist for Apple alongside Steve Jobs. So he's, that's a fascinating conversation where he really talks warts and all about what life was like under Steve. And, and they they famously fell out and he left, he worked for Apple twice. He went back and, and left. But yeah, there's some interesting conversations about life life with Steve on that podcast. Brilliant. I'll listen to that. How do you view business relations ships?

What do you think is really important to have a good business relationship? Maybe I'm getting old, Dave. I don't know. You know, I think be yourself in this current climate. I'm looking out there on social media and everyone's pretending to be something that they're not, you know, so I think in terms of business relationships, it's authenticity. It just counts for a lot. Never ask people to do what you don't want to do, you know, treat people how you always want to be treated. I think kindness goes a long way.

And actually going back to the Guy Kawasaki podcast is called saying Yes to opportunity. I think. And, and I'm with that, you know, be open minded in business and make sure that you take those opportunities when they arise, because you know, you never know where might take you. So I think kindness, be yourself and, and just being open minded. And with those relationships, then you know you'll, you'll, you'll definitely open doors as you as you go through your career. Yeah. And I think I think that's very good advice.

And I think if I look at some of the best athletes in the world, those are very comfortable in their skin. You you just see a different level of relaxation. But when they're performing and I think afterwards impress and everything like that, I think it's almost like a humbleness where they they understand that they're brilliant at what they do, but that doesn't make them special people. It makes them special in their field. And you know, you know, I say this often, if I'm I'll, I don't want Roger Federer showing up as my doctor.

I want a good doctor. You know, if just because you happen to be a genius in one area doesn't mean that you're a special person and very good at everything. I think sometimes that's how I think people do get in trouble is they that branch out into things that they really don't have expertise in and invest in things that they don't know about. And that's how they, you know, they can lose big fortunes. Yeah. Because I think they'll be good at everything. And they're not very good at something that they that they go.

Into. So that's probably why I've never gone down the crypto route for, for that reason, because I just don't understand it. A lot of people losing their shirt right now. Yeah. If you could look back 10 years and man to yourself, what would you say that maybe you missed that would have helped you a lot? I am. I had a fabulous team. You know, I think we, we were so confident when we would go into pitches and of course you can't win them all. It's a numbers game. But I, I think we had a fabulous team.

But I probably, you know, was a perfectionist and maybe I should have, you know, trusted in others or not trusted in others. I trusted my team, maybe delegated more. I often took too much on as a workload, even though, you know, they were very capable and that could have freed my my time up much more. And I think, well, I suppose in the world of data analysis, you can always do more analysis on that. You can always crunch the data more to try and get another angle on a story. And yes, we all aim for perfection, but it can get in the way of progress.

Winston, Winston Churchill famously said perfection is the enemy of progress. So over time, I've learned to make decisions, act based on probably, you know, trying to get to 100% perfection, but acting on 70%, you know, confidence limits where you know, I know I've got the story, I know this is going to make the difference to the client, you know, So I think definitely delegating more and, and, and, you know, not aiming for that perfection every time probably would have helped stress levels maybe and, and give me back some time in my life.

I think that's, I think that's a really good observation. And I think it's, I wonder sometimes if perfectionism is sometimes a fear in disguise and that, you know, I think you work at something, work at something, don't want to release it or don't want to go for it because it needs to be perfect. And I wonder sometimes if that's just the fear that it might fail and, and that, you know, but that waiting can actually lead to missed opportunities. It really can. Yeah, it really can. I mean, I think especially with some of our marketing materials, you know, it was like get it out in market or let's get this message known, let's start to ramp up the awareness about this.

And we could have tweaked it and yes, maybe we could have done some of the things differently, but you learn from that as well. And likewise, when we were cutting data to, to present findings back to clients, you know, the, the, the team is it all often say, you know, that, oh, let's just have a look at this other story. But we've got the big picture, We've got the message we're landing here. And, and this is going to make a difference to them. There might be a subplot or a sub story that we can find in some of the data, But you know, we we can't spend all the time just trying to.

Look for that. But also when you when you pitch in that there's not that much that people can actually take in, you know, it's very true. Tell that like blows their mind. Yeah, so and I think that's something I've made a mistake of in the past is like, you know, give too much and then it just overwhelms people. And that which is the same in coaching, you know, if you know, one of the great learnings and coaching is, is so often, you know, little is more. And it takes maturity and coaching to realize that if you just say the right thing at the right time, that's way more powerful than 10 things that you know at the wrong time, even though they might be very valid.

And finally, who do you think I should have on the show next? Will you do the introduction? Well, as I've said, I've, I've had some fabulous people, but I was, I was thinking who, who would fit both from, you know, someone that I've spoken to or know from a pastor and would fit with your show Dave and your audience. And, and actually, Damian Hughes is someone that I've already recorded the interview of the episode and it will be going out in, in some time in February. But he's he's the author of nine best selling business books.

And he likes the podcast with Jake Humphreys. He does. Those are the high performance podcast. And in fact, from the learnings from that podcast he's put together, it's on the the shelf. Yeah, micro habits, tiny changes that supercharge high performance and yeah, he, well, he's be a fabulous guest. He served as a member of the coaching team for England Rugby League, England Roses, Scotland Rugby Union and yeah, other international teams. I think, you know, he's, he's even worked alongside the likes of I know he's definitely been praised by Muhammad Ali, Roger Bannister, Tiger Woods, Johnny Wilkinson, Sir Alex Ferguson.

So he can really bring to your show, you know, a lot of insight there. Well, I would be delighted to have him on the show, so thank you for that. And he's a, he's a, he's a fellow fellow Mank as well. So yes. Well, I lived there for over 20 years, so I know, I know the area very, very well. Yeah. And, and had a fabulous time there and actually managed Clayton Blackmore back in the day. Yeah. So I went to lots of Man United games and used to play tennis with Martin Edwards. Right. Yeah. So yeah, happy days as well, definitely.

Happy days are coming again, hopefully under Michael Carrick. Yeah, it's it's been like a dark cloud and it's just that chink of sunlight looking through. Long ways ago, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because you know in the in the early 80s and, and and mid 80s, you know, as you say, all they could win was the FA Cup. Yeah. You know, it, it was quite a tough time to follow United then. And then of course, Alex came along and, and everything changed and suddenly became fashionable, you know, and United was and as a as a fan, it was like, you know, don't forget, there were dark days.

All the success is great, but there were dark days as well. So I think that in some ways it's good that there's some, you know, tougher times because makes people really appreciate the good times. Yeah. Which maybe Man City will find out. Yeah, yeah, let's hope so. Great. Well, it's been Absolutely Fabulous having you on and next time it will be your turn to put me in the hot seat. But thank you so much for your time and it's been very insightful. Thanks for having me on Dave, really enjoyed it.

Great. Thanks. For watching Locker Room Power with David Samuel, if you enjoyed the episode, hit subscribe and leave a comment on your favorite platform. See you in the next one.

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