Stefanie Teichmann | Trusting Your Gut: Decision-Making for Modern Leaders

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Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. You know, Oh my God, who am I going to be when I don't have that business card anymore? You know, what's my identity when I can't define myself by this amazing company and when I don't fly around like in business class and meet all these very important people.

When I'm not surrounded by all these smart guys and girls. And it didn't take long. I tell you, it took a few days only until I realized that actually the world doesn't revolve around McKinsey, and that what matters is who I am and how I show up and what I bring to the table as me, as opposed to the name on the business card of the company you work for.

Hi everyone, I'm Chris. Delighted to have Doctor Stephanie Teichman on the show. She has a fantastic track record in working for corporates. She started off as a McKinsey consultant and then went to leadership roles in Nike Europe and then Coca-Cola Worldwide, and then finally had a stint at Google before spreading her wings and starting her own company and becoming a consultant again. And yeah, lots of experience and going to be tremendous to hear from you. So, but before we get into it, why don't you tell everybody a little bit more about about your story?

Sure. First of all, hi, Dave. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Very much looking forward to our chat. Yeah, so I think it was in 2018 when I decided, as you say, to spread my wings and I founded Tekka Taichman Executive Coaching and Advisory. And before that, I had the privilege of working with some amazing global companies, you know, household brand names, as you mentioned, Nike, Cole, Google. Yeah. And in 2018, I thought it was time to leave the corporate safety net and do something on my own.

What I'd always been interested in, in my corporate career is this intersection between business and people, because I think that's where all the magic happens. And that's what I wanted to do with Tekka. So as you I'm sure can hear, I'm originally German. I've lived and worked in many countries across Europe and the US, but now I'm based in Dublin. That's where TECA is headquartered. And from here, we serve clients from all over the world, mostly like C-Suite -1, but also like entrepreneurs and high potentials.

And when I say we, that's a team, a small team of business coaches and consultants, all of whom have like profound deep business knowledge and experience. And we focus on executive coaching, on leadership development. We also offer capability building workshops. For instance, one of our signature programs is on executive presence because that's still a hot topic, which. Very nicely with my book Locker Room Power, which is all about aura and presence. Oh, no, exactly, exactly. And yeah, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that too.

The fun thing about the executive presence is that so many people get the feedback. You have to work on your executive presence. And then I'm like, yeah. And what the hell is that? You know, because it's so such a weird term. Yeah. And then what we also do is we help organizations through transformation processes. It comes in handy that I got a PhD in change management and also taught as a professor for strategic development and organizational change for more than a decade. And I think this topic is becoming more and more important, especially in the age of AI that we're all living in right now.

Right, well, I'm going to fire off my first question is everybody. Well, most people have pivotal moments in their career and where change happens. Can you point to one or two of your pivotal moments and, and how you actually handled them? Because obviously you've, you've made a few changes and you know, they're, they're there are things that go on when you make those changes both, you know, internally, personally and, and also in, in the actual job scope. Yeah. Yeah, as you say, there certainly have been a number.

I think the first one I'd like to mention is, is when I moved from being a consultant to working in a corporate, it's a very different world. When you work in a consultancy, you are on a project which may be weeks or months. You work with the team just for the time you are doing this project, you are under extreme time pressure. You have to deliver. It's all about delivering, it's all about deadlines and, you know, getting results for the clients. When you work in a incorporate, the dynamics are different.

You, you will not just leave after the project, but you actually have to continue to work with those people, right? And I was lucky enough to have an amazing mentor at the time who I remember very clearly took me aside a couple of months in said like, you know, you're doing great work on these projects here. I was working in strategic planning at the time, but you know, this is not consulting. So what really matters here is that you bring people along. And if you want to create sustainable change and make, you know, make things last, then it's it's really important that people enjoy the process and that you, you know, involve them much more than I did at the time.

And of course, you also need to deliver results. But you know, it doesn't need to be 150%, you know, and if you miss the deadline by a couple of days, that's all right too, you know, because the how is at least as important as the what. And I think that was something that stayed with me, you know, to this very day. And that's also something I definitely I'm trying to instill in in, in, in, in the people I work with, the leaders I coach. And then maybe the second thing I want to mention is because it's not a particular point in time, but it's something that was the very finding for my career is the fact that when I look back, I left every single one of my jobs without having a new job.

That's obviously, you know, not everybody's cup of tea. And a lot of people were like, why are you doing this? You know? But to me, it felt like once I had finished a particular chapter and I felt that, you know, this story had come to a natural ending, I felt that I needed to leave. And I guess I had, you know, call it overconfidence, call it naivety, but I always thought like, OK, you know what you're good at. What are you doing? You will find another job. And I did. And there were a couple of really important lessons in there because it wasn't easy.

Like when I left McKinsey, for instance, I didn't have the job at Nike, right? It took me a few months. But what I did learn in that moment was when you worked at McKinsey, and McKinsey could be, you know, replace it with any name as your first big job. I felt, you know, Oh my God, who am I going to be when I don't have that business card anymore? You know, what's my identity when I can't define myself by this amazing company and when I don't fly around like in business class and meet all these very important people, when I'm not surrounded by all these smart guys and girls.

And it didn't take long, I tell you, it took a few days only until I realized that actually the world doesn't revolve around McKinsey. And that what matters is who I am and how I show up and what I bring to the table as me, as opposed to, you know, the name on the business card of the company you work for. And, and that was a very important lesson for me early on because that gave me then the courage in the following career transitions to, you know, to leave with when I felt it was time to leave, even if I didn't have something perfect lined up.

I think that's very interesting. And I, I always say to, you know, performers, lead performers in anything that the best or the bravest and you need to have courage to excel. And that's, that's a great example, I think of courage because you know, it, it is much more comfortable and, and safer to, to stay where you are and try redefine yourself within the job that you're in. But I think you also miss out on an, an adventure because, you know, you know, working for different companies and now for, for yourself, you know, you've experienced a broad spectrum of, of what you can do in many different situations, which I think is, is, is brilliant.

But I think, you know, equally, I think some people reinvent themselves or, or whatever within a company and, and, and do very well and can be with the company for, for a long time. But, you know, I kind of a light align it to, you know, I'm from South Africa and I left very young at 17. And I know, you know, and obviously as a parent now I understand a bit more devastating was for my parents that I never went back to live in South Africa and the friends that I had in high school and everything, you know, it kind of disappears because, you know, when they say distance makes a heart grow fonder, not, not quite because, you know, it's very difficult to keep relationships going over such a long distance over years and years.

And, and I kind of came to the, the, the decision that in life you choose the adventure, which is maybe a lot of change and or you choose to create very, very deep roots where you are. And they both have their benefits and they both have their, their, their, their downsides. And you can't you, you basically can't have both. I think you, you need to have a go on the adventure or create the deep roots. That's just the way I consider. I, I absolutely agree with that. And, and you're, you're totally right.

You know, there is no right or wrong here. I think the point I'm I was trying to make, what I learned about for myself is there is a risk for every leader in any organization to define yourself by your job and by your title and by the greatness of the brand or the company you work for. And I think that's kind of a dangerous route. Well, it is is very dangerous and you know, I want to mention any names or companies, but I know of two people who had nervous breakdowns when they lost their jobs in big corporate and it's because they've totally lost their identity.

Identity. It seemed like they didn't feel like they were anything without the badge. Really, really, really struggled for many, many years to come to terms of the fact that they no longer had the corporate mic behind them. I think what you say there is, is not only powerful, but very important that, you know, first and foremost, you got to know who you are and that you know, without the, the corporate power behind you, you can still survive and still go on to do other things. My next question is, obviously these were decisions that you had to make.

What sort of model? How do you, how do you make decisions? I know it's probably a very big subject, but in a in a nutshell, how, how, how do you make decisions? You know, I think on the one hand, I'm a very rational person and I obviously look at the facts and the pros and the cons. But in the end, I do believe that you need to listen to your guts. One thing that is, you know, like let me call it a motto or mantra. One thing that is very important to me, and it's so important that it's actually the only quote that I put on my own website, is, is about perspective.

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And so for most relevant decisions, I apply some kind of reframing where I try to put myself in different shoes. I look at a problem through different angles. I think about, you know, what would that look like if I sat on the other side of the table or what would that look like if I looked at it not through a strategic angle like 3-5 years I would, but through an operational technical angle like, you know, how are we going to make this work in the next three months?

So I'm trying to look at any kind of bigger decision or question or challenge through different angles and to try to avoid or at least mitigate the own bias that we all have. That's very good. I've got a question for you that on, on, on gut feeling intuition, whatever you want to call it when you maybe want something badly, I think it is actually possible to invent a gut feeling to feel like it is your gut instinct. So how do you kind of distinguish between, you know, what's an invented gut feeling versus a genuine gut feeling?

I'm not sure you can, you know, you know, because, you know, because when it's so present for you, you know, you believe your own delusion, I guess, you know, and, and therefore I think it's really important to, to look at it, as I said, through, you know, to change perspectives and put different lenses on to try to, I don't want to say objectify something, but to just get away from, OK, I really want this, you know, but, but in the end, I still think whether it's like a fictional gut feeling or a real gut feeling, in the end, you need to follow that if it feels so right.

And then you just need to live with the consequences. I mean, one thing I have learned is there's very little in life that's irreversible. You know, if, if if you make a decision and somehow it doesn't work out, it's OK, you can change it. You know, there are consequences with that. Usually it costs money. But you know, you can't just change the direction and say, OK, that and just because it didn't work doesn't necessarily mean it was the wrong decision because maybe you just needed that lesson or that takes you in the path that that that you need to go.

So I, you know, I think, I think I've come to the conclusion that there's very little in life that you can do wrong because, you know, ultimately you're going down a path and and it will take you somewhere and and who's to who's to know it's the right or wrong path? I think it's just your path. Yeah, maybe that sounds a bit woo woo, but. No, no, I absolutely agree. Absolutely. You know, it's like, you know, you're always at a crossroads, you know, and you can't go both ways. Yeah. And you never know where the other Rd.

would have led you. And, you know, and what's the point in, you know, worrying about it? No, definitely no point. I don't think this question is about pressure. And when you're working with leaders of a company and they're under pressure and they're really feeling the heat, what what do you try to give them? I mean, obviously leaders rate very different under pressure and have different coping mechanisms.

What I, how I try to help is to give them an anchor and it needs to be an anchor that is obviously their anchor and relevant for them. Apart from the OK, you know, let's all take a step back and take a deep breath to really remember what is actually your goal here in this situation? What's actually your objective? What do you actually want to achieve? And if you remember that, then look at the situation that you're in front of right now, your behaviour that you're displaying, and ask yourself, is this actually helping my longer term objective or is it harming?

And in my experience, even that little thought experiment helps people to shift to shift their mindset, their state, their energy, and to focus then on what matters in the moment. And maybe to make it more practical. Like if you have, you know, if you have like a leader who's working on an on an important project and all with the team and all of a sudden, you know, the deadline is pulled forward significantly. They figure out that the data is not reliable or things like that. You know as a leader you have a choice to be stressed out and to.

Push harder on the team and in a moment like this, if as a leader, you were to remember what your original goal was, for instance, obviously I'm making this up now, but for instance, like building credibility with the stakeholders so that they would continue to keep going, putting resources in this particular project. If that's your goal, then pushing the team harder and you know, and, and you know, making your stress like burdening them with your stress will not lead to results. That helps you build credibility with your stakeholders.

So instead, when you when you take the step back, when you take a deep breath and you think about, OK, with all of these problems that I'm seeing here, how can I still go for this objective that I have? How can I still make that happen? And you would probably come to different solutions where you'd be like, OK, dear team, let us have a quick discussion around what we can still deliver in the best quality and so on and so on. You get the idea. It's it's it's, it's really about a reminder of what is it you're actually trying to achieve and what will help you get there as opposed to not.

Yeah. I mean, one of the questions I like, I like to ask is what type of leader would you do you want to be exactly? And then, you know, it's very easy. You know, it's one thing saying what you want to be, but this is the moment to prove that you are what you want to be or you are who you say you are. And so rather than seeing this as a pressure that's hurting, you see it as a pressure that's proving you, proving who you are, proving what you can do when it doesn't look good. Because it's, you know, it's easy to be good when things are going well and it's fairly tough to to be good when things are going badly.

But that is actually I think what what separates the the great from from the good or average is in the high pressure moments, they are the leaders that they think that they are and want to be and they are able to hold that line even when things are very tough. Yeah, absolutely. And this is how you create the trust in you as a leader. If you're like consistently and reliably behave, you know, the way that you want to show up as a leader. Yeah. And, and I mean, I see it with, you know, in, in, in, in sport, I see it with coaches and parents a lot where they expect the player out there, their kid or the player out there to be really calm under pressure.

And they're, you know, pacing up and down or, you know, covering their heads and, you know, going crazy on the sideline and said, well, you know, they're the ones actually under the pressure. Yes, of course you're with them and you're feeling the pressure, but you can't expect them to be cool under pressure if you can't demonstrate it yourself. That's. Energy is so contagious, you know, and it's, it's one of these things there. But I also find interesting then, is that sometimes people and you know, humans, we just underestimate the impact that how we show up, the impact that has on others, right.

And, and, and to me, great leadership really always starts with that kind of self-awareness. Because if we, if we don't have the self-awareness to know, you know, how we are being experienced, as opposed to the story we tell ourselves, our own narrative in our own head about how we are, you know, might not have a lot to do with how we actually are being experienced by others. And that self-awareness, to me, is absolutely critical. Yes, yeah, I agree with that. And really to, to get that self-awareness, you have to ask other people some tough questions.

You know, don't. And I, and I think it's very difficult for leaders because you, you, you have to try and find people around you. And that's why I think having an outside coach can, can really help that are going to tell you a truth. I'm not saying the truth, but a truth that you might think always very different from the story that you're telling yourself. So you can take a step and go, oh, oh, actually, do I really do that or do I really sound like that or do I really come across like that? Well, yes, you know, and, and, and though tough to hear it can it can really help in, in, you know, work in a narrower band.

You know, if, if, if, if you work in a wide band where you're up and down like this, you know, I think we all work in bands, but the narrow you can make that band to how you are and how people experience you. I think that gives a lot of trust and confidence as well. Yeah, Yeah. No, absolutely. And one of the things that we do that I find is most powerful are interview based three 60s. I mean, everybody has like 360 surveys right, left and center right and nothing wrong with that. However, in my experience, you know, we all know how we feel these and you know, like, you know, we tick boxes and it takes a lot of time.

And, and also they don't really go into any depth. And what I found is like even even last week, you know, I did, I did a 360 interview process with, with, with a client and I interviewed 8 key stakeholders. It's so really fascinating because it allows you to go a little bit deeper into the why. You know, like it's not just like, does this person demonstrate this behavior? Yes or no, but it really allows you to give examples, etcetera. It's still confidential, it's still anonymous because I then take out like the themes and the patterns and play that back to the client.

And that is incredibly eye opening and not easy for them to, you know, to come to terms with the good, the bad and the ugly. And as you say, these are obviously also perceptions. And then as a leader, you need to make up your mind like, OK, how important is this to me? How do I want to show up? And if this is how I beat harm being experienced, what is it that I want to do about it? Understanding that there is no right or wrong here, but this is genuinely how people see you and it's up to you to do something without or decide not to.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's very good. I mean, I have a belief that self-awareness is, is our journey, that the, you know, we're trying to get more and more self aware and it's a difficult journey. And even if you are aware, changing habits is very tough. Yeah, you know, but I really Rage Against this when people say, oh, that's just me. That's such a lazy response, yeah. It just enrages me. I mean, because, well, you know, we all evolve all the time. And even when you're saying it's just me, you're not the same as you were five years ago.

You still, you know, evolve not that much. But, you know, you're never just you because life happens and it and it and it and it evolves people. Yeah. I've got just two more questions for you and this one is I know something that you're doing a lot of work on is AI and you you're coming from a different approach because everybody's like, what can AI do for me? What can it do for my business? How are we going to implement AI and just talk a little bit around your approach to to AI because I find it fascinating.

Yeah, AI is obviously all around us and you know, there is no escaping it really and in particular in the business world. So what I'm experiencing is that a lot of leaders are simply overwhelmed and, and some of them are aware, talking about awareness. They are aware of that and others find it very hard to admit that. But you know, just, even if you just think about it, you and me every day there is like, oh, here's the latest tool and this is what I can do and and so on and so on. And when you're like running a business where you, you feel like.

On steroids. Oh, absolutely. And you know, and the board is asking you like, oh, what are you? What is your AI strategy? And you think your competitors are all ahead of it and and so on and so on. You know, there is, there's definitely an anxiety around it. And I think my approach is probably like, I would say 3 pronged. Like first of all, you need to work with leaders on their mindsets towards anything to do with AI and technological change. And when I say mindset, there is this fine line where I do believe that nowadays leaders have to have a foundational knowledge of AI.

However, they are not expected and cannot be expected to be experts and to know everything because they can't, right? So what they do need to develop, apart from what I call like a kind of foundational expertise, is a sense of open mindedness and curiosity to come to terms with the fact that there is that uncertainty is there to stay. So, you know, I look at it in three waves. You know, there's the what is here right now, right? But then there is the next wave, what is around the corner that I can already see.

But there's also the complete unknown that neither of us knows about. And you need to have a mindset that allows you to to live through all these three horizons, right? So mindset is #1 working on that and helping the organization with that as well. The second one is absolutely strategy to be very clear on like what are my strategic priorities and how do they change or how do they stay the same given the opportunities we see with AI, what are the risks associated with it? What are the opportunities and how do I go about them?

So really having your own strategy as as an anchor and not just run after some kind of hype because everybody does it, right? The strategic anchor is the 2nd and the third one is obviously people, you know, like how do I bring my people along? How am I able to create a culture? Because, you know, a lot of cultures are still not like that, where you know, where it's OK to fail, where it's OK to experiment, where people are invited and allowed to Co create and where you reduce the resistance and the fear that comes with it.

And the important thing about these three things like mindset and strategy and people is it doesn't happen sequentially. It needs to happen all in one. You know, you can't wait to bring the people along, you know, like until you've figured out the perfect strategy because in this world there is no perfect strategy, right? So all of this need needs to happen at at once. And, and that's what we are in a systematic way are helping individual leaders, but also organizations with starting with the diagnostic assessment, you know, like in terms of like leadership on the one hand and organizational capabilities on the other hand, and, and helping organizations and leaders understand where they actually stand when it comes to AI readiness.

Yeah, I think it's obviously it's a very hot topic, but I think the word overwhelming is I think is going to hit everybody, you know, like a ton of bricks. I think, I think even even in your everyday life, I think things are going to be moving very fast. And, and I think that the most difficult part is, you know, AI is not perfect by any means. And it you know, it, it can feed a load of rubbish to you sounding very plausible. And I think it's, it's going to be, I think there's going to be a massive, massive job opportunity for a lot of people who really, really understand AI in, in trying to get AI to tell the truth and, and stay on course and, and not, you know, go off on, on tangents.

And, and just to really manage the AI in, in, in a, in a sensible way, which hopefully it can be because, you know, it's almost like, you know, the news, it's, you know, there's people doing news on YouTube, they're doing it on X, they're doing it on every, you know, every kind of platform. And everybody's got their angle and everybody's like, you know, we are the truth. Everybody else is liars. And, and how do you, how do you sort out, you know, who is telling the truth? And, and, you know, it's, I, I think it's very difficult now to, to figure out, you know, what is truly happening versus what, you know, what, what you've been told is happening from so many different angles.

But I think in business AI, there's a danger that AI can start to do that to a business with where it's it's, it's showing too many opportunities, but the capabilities are not quite there. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And of course, you know, critical thinking remains absolutely essential and sure that there is, at least in my humble opinion, that there is a human in the loop, right, Even though, you know, the human is not perfect, AI is not perfect, right? And combination, Yeah. So, yeah, so, so I think, as I said, I think there's a fine line between the risks and the opportunities.

And that's why governance models are so important. That's why I think it's also as part of the strategy, it's so important to to be really clear on decision making processes and accountabilities like which decisions for particular use cases do you less? Do you leave completely in the hands of AI which decisions? Or at one point in the decision making process, do you say like, no, this is where the human needs to, you know, be involved and included and you can't leave that to chance that that's the process that you need to figure it out the way you have to have guardrails in place.

And transparency is also absolutely critical. Like also transparency when it comes to your employees, you know, because they also need to know is what you are saying as a leader, is that actually true or not? You know, sometimes you see situations where employees don't really know if what they're hearing from a leader is actually authentically, genuinely their leader or it's it's, it's, it's AI. Yeah. Should not replace. Us, is it an AI written speech or your speech? Yeah. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with with help.

Yeah, no, I agree with that 100%. I think. I mean, you know, in a way it's just AI is just powerful supplements. Yeah, totally. That's a that's a great way of putting it, yeah. And but you know, you you, you still have to decide what supplements to take. Yeah. You can steal that. I will. I will. My, my last question for you is obviously worked in different countries. You've had a lot of experiences and in different times of your life, different people influence you. But if you look back, which sort of person or two people have had a lot of influence on, on, on your career or on you as a person that like, it's like, wow, you know, this is, you know, this, if I look back, these, they really influence me.

Oh, God, there are so many, you know, and, and it's, it's the interesting thing is it goes both ways in terms of like good influence. And sometimes you look at people and you're like, OK, this is how I really don't want to be, you know. So, yeah. So I, you know, I think a little bit earlier in, in my career, there was a lady at Nike who had, you know, she had an amazing influence on me because she was really a proper mentor. And she also was somebody who took a risk on me. And I think that's, that's an amazing leadership capability as well to, to look at people and see their potential and take a risk.

And it was a situation where I moved from strategy into my first P&L responsibility and pass that was her name. She unfortunately passed away in the meantime. But at the time, not only did she give me very invaluable feedback along the way, sometimes unsolicited, and I really needed to hear it. And it was quite tough, right? But it always came from a good place because when when it really counted, when it was like, OK, now Stephanie needs AP and LA business role. What are we going to do with her?

She was the one to step up and say, like, I have a role here. I know she's never done this before, but I trust that with the right guidance she will be great. And I think there's still too few people out there who take a risk on young, great talent just because they haven't done something before. Which is ridiculous in a way, because everybody had to have their first time, even the person, the people making the decisions. It's it's. Totally, Yeah, totally. But, you know, but I mean, it's, it's still the same like so many, you know, when you when you when you talk to people looking for jobs or having job interviews and it's like, OK, but you know, have you already LED a team of like 500 people?

No, I only led the team of 50 people. Well, you know, so. Yeah, so. So what, you know, so. So she was a great influence. And what I also took away from her is like she was so she was such a straight shooter. You always knew where you stood with her. And there was no guessing. There was no hidden agendas, you know, And then I had, I had an unfortunately a number of of leaders that I experienced that were not great leaders, right where it was more about their egos. It was about making them successful.

And it was like, if you are not with them, you're against them. You know, they sometimes made you feel like, you know, either you're incompetent or you're a traitor. And in a very subtle way, you know, very subtle bullying, right? And it definitely taught me a lot about myself. It taught me about how I don't want to show up as a leader. But it also helped me, you know, like, ask myself a few questions, like, OK, do I want this one person? Do I want to give this one person the power to impact how you think about yourself and how you think about your career?

Right. And that took quite some practice for me to be able to, you know, to step back and be like, no, I don't want to give this person this power. I can't change him. But I can change my reaction. I can change. I can still choose my path, right? And yeah, so lots of people with lots of influence. And there's this, there's many more that I am to this day incredibly grateful that they spent, you know, energy and time listening to me, guiding me. And I think we all need that. And I think one of the lessons that I that were incredibly important throughout my career that I had to learn over and over again is that you need, you need that support.

You need a good network, you know, and that's something you need to actively invest in. When I was young, I thought I could conquer the world by myself, that I didn't need anybody, right? But I do and we all do. Yeah. And thankfully there there were a lot of people who actually stepped up and and helped me along the way. Yeah, I think, I think that's one thing that sport in general gets right, because you cannot succeed in sport without a A-Team around you, even as an individual sport like tennis, you know, and, and, and the best in the world always have coaches, you know, and there's a reason for that because I think I think the biggest thing that coach can give to any leader is the ability to get out of their own heads.

And I think, you know, we all need that. We got to get out of our own heads and, and, and see things you mentioned earlier from, you know, totally reframed in a different way. And I think good coaches do that. They, they give people a totally different perception or they reframe things for them and, or, or give them an analogy that, you know, clicks something into place and, and it's, you know, it's, it's very hard. You know, you can't get some of it from books and that, but it's in the one to one conversations where things, you know, you know, I have a thing where, you know, it's very healthy to talk a problem.

And sometimes, you know, I've talked a problem a lot before. Suddenly there's that, Oh, there's the little step forward. Couldn't see it. But when you talk it through and talk it through it, it, it can come. And yeah, I think, you know, intent is a big thing as well. You mentioned that with Pat having great intent, you knew where she was coming from. And and really, in truth, you know, I think that one of the, you know, the the great traits for leaders is just that candid honesty and, you know, no bullshit.

You know, this is how I see it. Whether you know, the, the, there was a, a guy in my career, Billy Knight, and he, he was very, very popular because he made some terrible decisions, honestly. But at the same time, you always knew that he really believed in them. And he did it because he truly believed it was right. And those decisions could go for you or against you. And it wasn't, it wasn't personal you, you just knew that, you know, you could disagree with him, you could come with your arguments and everything like that, but in the end, he would make a decision.

As I said, some of them were terrible, but he also made some very good decisions.

But you never held anything against him in any way because you just knew that you know it. It didn't matter who it was. He was going to make the decision based on what he truly believed was the right thing to do, having heard everybody and and it was coming always from the right place. You know, how can we do better? And and that's, you know, I think that's the sound of a good leader where you can decide against people and they still, they still with you. Yeah, because of where it's coming from.

Yeah, because you care. They know you care. Yes, yes, that's the bottom line, yeah. Genuine care which AI can't give, not.

Yet. Not yet, no. Great. I'm going to ask you one last question and and you may, may or may not be able to answer it, but if you had one piece of advice for a young aspiring leader, what would it be? I think it's got to be pick your battles, you know, and don't waste energy, you know, on chasing things that really might not move the needle or trying to be perfect in any way for things that don't really matter. Yeah. So pick your battles and pick your battles based on your goal and what what you really need to be laser focused on, what you really need to get done.

And do that right instead of spreading yourself thin and thinking that you need to win every single argument and have to be perfect in every single way. I love that. That's very, very good advice. Pick your battles. I wish I'd known that 30 years ago. I picked a lot of battles that actually, in the big scheme of things, meant nothing and, you know, were total waste of energy. Yeah, but that's when you're younger, your egos a little bigger. You think you think you need to change the world in in many more areas than you need to be involved.

Yeah. Great. Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. And next you get to put me in the hot seat and we'll flip the script and you ask me some questions. Brilliant. I can't wait. Great, see you. See you soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for watching Locker Room Power with David Samuel. If you enjoyed the episode, hit subscribe and leave a comment on your favorite platform. See you in the next one. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Whoever you're repping this season, carry the team like a pro with altered, durable, officially licensed Yeti drink Ware.

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