Barry Cowan Interviews David Sammel: Anxiety, Pressure & Elite Performance

0:00 I think fatigued mentally after so many years on the road and so many years of of travel, I honestly believed that I could coach you guys to beat anybody. I really believed it 100%. If you look at it, it's the manageable anxiety, the place where you can perform without going to high stress. You know, we've talked about it already as you learn to endure more. So in other words, the the pressure that it takes to push, you know, Sinner into high anxiety. Barry, good to see you again. And this is where you turn the tables on me and get to ask me a few a few questions.

0:43 So over to you. You've decided to bushwhack me and just ask me and I will do my best to cope with whatever you throw at me. Well, this is what I've been really looking forward to. Dave put a year on the hot spot. Yeah, well, go for it. Yeah, where, where, where I start. I mean, you've been a coach for many years, but now you're out of the coaching game. So what? What's it like? For the first time, I'm not coaching for, you know, 30 odd years. It's different and I'm not sitting here saying that I will not coach again on the tour because you never know what opportunities come your way.

1:21 But certainly I was, I think fatigued mentally after so many years on the road and so many years of travel. And I'm kind of, you know, 6-7 months away from all that and I still don't have like this intense desire to get back and travel that many weeks. So I think if I had to do it again, it would be some kind of hybrid together with a younger coach maybe and, and, and helping out and, you know, doing 12 to 15 weeks maybe with a player. But what I am finding very, very interesting is a different kind of coaching, which is, you know, mentoring and coaching players, businessman, you know, elite athletes from different sports online on, on all the mindset lessons I've learned over so many years.

2:11 And I've also studied a huge amount in applied psychology and, and you know, done some formal courses with a fantastic course with the University of California, Berkeley, their business executive coaching course, which I learned a hell of a lot about a different style of coaching and the European mentoring diploma, which is also more on the mentoring side. But all of that combined with my experience means that I, I feel like I have a lot of insight. And then at the end of the day, everything is a results business.

2:43 So if your clients are not progressing well, they would not remain as clients. You know, I always gauge the biggest success that you have is when you know, whether it's players or clients stay with you because clearly it's working for them so that you know, it's a different lifestyle. But I'm at the moment, I'm enjoying finding my feet and doing things differently. And I can't say that I've 100% found my feet yet, but I am. I'm enjoying the move to doing things differently. Where are you a better coach now than you were 30 years ago?

3:21 It's funny, you said something in the, when I was talking to you, you that in some ways naivety was maybe a good thing. And, and I, I do have this question in my head because certainly when I was working with you and ARV and Marty and you know, Flex and Miles and Arvind is in those days, I think I do still have a naivety about me and that I honestly believed that I could coach you guys to beat anybody. I really believed it 100%. So, you know, when, when you played Sampras, when, you know, Miles played Boris, I, I honestly believed that you could win these matches.

4:03 And, and, and I was a said in a breakup against Sampras at Queens. I really, I really honestly believe that these things were possible. And now so much further in the journey, I certainly think I would not have that same just blind belief that I had then. And I wondered if that made me somehow in that time a a better coach. But the skills that I have now in enabling people to get their heads in the right space and, you know, to get them to understand pressure even better and to deal with stress and anxiety is so far superior to what I had in those days.

4:45 And so I think that's the main difference is a skill set that I have now to be able to help elite performers navigate all the different pressures and situations that come their way is so much more superior. But it is a question, you know, I have wondered. I wonder which is there's no answer. Would you guys have done even better with the David Samuel of today than you did with the David Samuel then? And there is no answer to that. But certainly my skill set is is far superior. And and how do you mentioned about stress, how do you how do you unlock the athlete to open up about why they get stressed?

5:31 Because every athlete gets stressed. There's no, there's no athlete doesn't get stressed. So what? What are for you? The keys to try and unlock that I think. I think acceptance is a big part of it. And this is not a docile acceptance. It's not like, you know, there's stress. What can I do about it? It's it's an aggressive acceptance, which says, OK, I understand. And the way I explain it is this is, is, you know, if you got like a graph and you're at the top, you've got high anxiety. Now no person can live in high anxiety.

6:03 So when, when, when somebody goes into high anxiety, they immediately have to come away from it. So how do they do that? Well, you, you have to expend some kind of energy to to to drop down below that high anxiety because a very high energized state and in a very stressful state, which is actually high energy. So how do you deal with that? Well, you can throw your racket, you can scream and curse that'll merely take you down. But you know, you can then lose another point or whatever and immediately go straight back.

6:33 So you can zigzag in and out, in and out, which is obviously understandable. And, and the end result of that usually is the player then loses all energy and goes down into a place of very, very low energy where it's like, you know, feeling sorry for themselves or totally exhausted or just, you know, no belief left. And so understanding that you can't live there, you then have to have healthy ways of staying just below it. And here's where I think it helps athletes is understanding if you're a competitor, you're always going to sit very close to that high anxiety line.

7:10 Otherwise you can't compete. You know, you can't be in the middle of the the manageable anxiety and and compete. You can't, you know, pretend like there's no stress as well. So that's why, you know, high performers are always actually a little bit insecure because they actually realize that they're only, you know, one kind of push from going into high anxiety, which is a terrible place to feel and zigzag in and out quite a lot. But don't don't forget that you have to sit very close to that line as a competitor.

7:41 And once you understand that, then I think it opens the athlete to listening to some of the tools that that you can use in order to stay below that high anxiety. And of course, if you look at it, it's the manageable anxiety, the place where you can perform without going to high stress. You know, we've talked about it already as you learn to endure more. So in other words, the pressure that it takes to push, you know, Sinner into high anxiety is a completely different level of pressure that it takes to push a junior into high anxiety.

8:17 In other words, he's manageable. You know, anxiety levels are very, very high. He's got a, he's got this massive band of all the things that are manageable before he gets pushed into high anxiety. And that's what you're trying to do is grow that manageable anxiety area through endurance, through resilience and through tools where you can manage more, more. I'd say a lot of the confidence that comes with highly successful people is not just that they're very good, it's that they know deep down that almost anything that is thrown their way, they can cope.

8:53 That gives you a huge amount of confidence. You know, doesn't matter what comes my way, I can cope. And you need to train younger players, younger execs, younger leaders to grow their capacity in what they can handle before they get pushed into high stress, high anxiety. Don't know if that answers your. Question which? Which kind of brings us on to obviously Sinner and Alcarez, and they have raised the bar. It's not easy to distress Sinner because his levels are so good and that's why he's utterly dominant as is, as is Alcarez.

9:28 So how are our players now going to be able to be better than Sinner and outcrows and and and you know, with linking with that we'll we'll players. You mean we saw the Super coaches. We went through that era. So So what have you know the lights of Fritz and it's Vera F those you know, 2 those two players and are obviously many more Fonseca who's a who's a young player. What have they got to do in terms of because time never stands still. So how can they improve to match? Well, I can color. I think one of the things that is very evident about the, you know, the previous era that we've spoken about, Novak and Rafa and Roger and to a lesser extent Vrenka and and Murray, is there were a couple of generations that weren't able to bridge that gap, which I think explained their longevity.

10:22 They were that good and that far ahead that there were younger generations that came through that could not break their hold on the game. And we may see that again with Alcaraz and Sinner. Yeah, but I think the mistake, I think the mistake that generation made, Dave, was they tried to beat those four by playing their game. Yes. And I think you've got to do something different. I think the next player for Sinner and Alcaz would not be beating them at what they do. It will be something different. Yeah, I think, you know, you talk about an awkward game and, you know, I think Sinner is trying to become a little bit more awkward, which Alcaraz is very awkward.

11:03 You know, with every era, it's it's, it's always very hard to see how anybody can be better, but it always happens. They do get better. I do think that the two things that could help unlock that level of player is second serve. I think the future is still not explored into how good second serves can become and how much more. Second serve, hitting a second serve or returning a second serve. Hitting a second serve, OK, I think returning of second serve has become very sophisticated and that's why I believe that, you know, a player needs to come along who will maybe serve a few more double faults, not loads more, but a few more double fault.

11:45 But we'll actually do some real damage with the second serve. Yeah, because I, I, I often talk about this in commentary that for me, I, I do find it surprising sometimes. And now we've moved on. I think Sampras is press is arguably one of the greatest servers. I think he was around 60 odd percent first serves in something like that. Now we're looking at 70%. You know, I mean Zverev is 70% plus, isn't that 70% plus? Yeah. So I would, you know, and this is where I think Curious was very smart is that if you're serving 70% plus and you're winning 80% of those points, why would you then roll in an average second serve but only be winning 50% of the points?

12:27 Surely if you're making almost three of every four first serves, Did you not, I'm not saying you hit the second seconds of the same speed as the first, but but maybe it's, it's not a 25% drop or 30% drop in terms of pace. It's not. Exactly what I'm getting at is I don't think that I think that's an area that definitely has room for exploration and, and you're spot on there. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And then, you know, I do think that if if players can find a way to get forward a little more, that and I think that opportunity would arise if the second serve was getting some weaker returns because I think, you know, behind the first serve, you know, great players are always winning the majority of points, you know, by country mile, but it's behind the second serve where there is, you know, the opportunity for for the returner.

13:27 And if you narrow that opportunity, because the second serve is so much better, you get the weaker returns, you're able to hit that bigger and and maybe open more opportunities to get forward and finish the point at the net. Those are the two things that I think could be an evolution going forward, but it's getting increasingly difficult because Alcoraz is very all court and his first serve has improved a lot and and his second serve has improved, but maybe there's a a lot more to go there. Fascinating, Dave.

13:57 Brilliant. Any further questions, Baz? No, I think that's covered everything. Brilliant. So Baz, my question to you, is there somebody that you know that I should or you can contact for me that you'd like to see on the show? And if you don't have an answer for that off the top of your head, that's fine. You can let me know later. No, I don't. I think like all these things. I think someone who thinks out the box, someone who does something a little bit different, I always find utterly fascinating.

14:28 Well, if, if somebody comes to mind, let me know. I will do. It's been an absolute pleasure. And like always, if you've enjoyed what we've spoken about here, please share it. And it's it's been great talking to you both as an interviewer and an interviewee. So thanks a lot, Barry and. Thank you. Again soon. Cheers. Take care. Bye for watching Locker Room Power with David Samuel. If you enjoyed the episode, hit subscribe and leave a comment on your favorite platform. See you in the next one.