Barry Cowan: Life After Tennis, Reinvention & Staying Relevant Under Pressure

In reality, I wasn't just sweating doesn't mean you're working hard. Yeah, from age 17, I would say my, the next 10 years of improving and just trying to get the best player I, I could possibly be was absolutely brutal. It really was, it was, it was taking me into a very uncomfortable position. And I think that's also key. And, and I remember asking myself the question that, man, I had a pretty disastrous, disastrous trip. I got injured a little bit and I wasn't, you know, to be honest, I wasn't very good in in the big scheme.

Well, Plaza Barry Count an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Been looking forward to us and as I know you very well since I was your coach. But you had a really good career both as a tennis player and then subsequently in the media. And, you know, you played tennis at the highest level and had a very memorable match at, at Wimbledon, which I'm sure you'll lose a little bit. But I'm, I am very interested in how you found that transition from tennis, you know, from the pro tour to doing some coaching, but mostly being in the media and, and how, you know, if you can remember what that was like for you.

And, you know, now you're obviously on our screens for many years with Sky Sports and Eurosport and ATP media and Wimbledon radio. So you're very, very experienced in the media now. But yeah, it's been a couple of decades that you've been doing this. But kind of remembering back what that transition like was for you. And then, you know, before you go into that, I'd love you to just give a, you know, a couple of minute overview of, you know, your life. So those people who who don't know you well, just get a better understanding of your journey.

Well, first of all, David, it is great to be here and obviously we go back such a long way. And actually you years ago when I sort of started on like any young aspiring tennis player, when you make those initial early steps of my parents driving me to Manchester for training. And I don't think any, I was going to say any tennis player, but I think any athlete wouldn't be in a position that they're in unless they have parents who make those sacrifices. So, yeah, my journey sort of started because my parents, I played tennis.

I had an older brother who's three years older, who, who actually was probably almost, I would say more talented A sportsman than than I was. But it was something that I always wanted to do from the age of 6, first time I stepped on the tennis court. And, and as you know, Dave, I'm quite stubborn and I'm also, once I, I've got my eyes set on something. Tennis was, was my life from age 6 to to 14. You, you're sort of making that progression. I was sort of top of my age group in my country and then at 14 I went to the the National Tennis School and thinking I was a lot better than I actually was.

But in reality I was sort of miles off where I wanted to get to. But I think at times the naivety is actually a good thing. But I think career defining moments was age 17 when I worked with Ian Barclay and and he was the first person I would, I would say that I work with who really gave me an insight of what tennis was about because I was just incredibly to be raw. I would hit balls and thinking I was working hard, but in reality I wasn't Just sweating doesn't mean you're working hard. Yeah, from age 17, I would say my the next 10 years of improving and just trying to get the best player I could possibly be, which, you know, I think I had a good career.

Of course there were things I would do differently. But overall, I don't think I have many regrets. And we were still working together when I stopped in 2000. And I think one of the things that did maybe hold myself back when I was playing, but I think has helped me in my next stage of my life as such, is working in the media because I used to possibly think too much. I played my best tennis when I didn't think, when I watched an admiration of the great players. Now when they're under pressure is when they just play with freedom.

But so I was quite analytical, which I think it helps me now in the job that I do. And I absolutely love it and privileged to follow the tour around. I've been privileged to be able to interview the very best and I've come through an amazing era of seeing Nadal, Djokovic, Federer and Murray and I think a couple of others. I'm not going to rule out Vavrinka as well because he's been astonishing. Unfortunately with injury. Yeah, yeah. You. Know and a couple of others that kind of raised the bar and, and I've, you know, we, we continue to talk about tennis and I, I've always someone like to see where the the game will be in the next 5 or 10 years.

And I think we're going to go in full circles. I think we're going to, I think Al Kraz is, is someone who is sort of almost reinventing the sport the way he plays all court player, you know, the hybrid for me of, of Nadal, Djokovic and Federer. And so you know that that's really the life that I have in terms of the media and and also being it's been a part of the sport because it's been my life for 45 years or so. Yes, and you have a daughter playing as well. I do, and I think it's I think it's always important as well to it's something that I sometimes you you do lose.

I would say when you're seeing the very best actually how hard the sport is, you know, I'll say to you know, if I'm commentating on a Sinner outcrest, they do make it look easy. But anyone who's played the sport knows what incredibly tough sport it is. So kind of bringing you back to the grassroots and it does. It does kind of take a throwback to when I was playing the junior game 40 odd years ago. I think patience is the key. As you know, Dave, you know, my admiration for you and any coach that's been through working with younger players, you've got to be patient.

You know what you think should happen automatically to a player. It might take them a month. In reality, it might take them a couple of years or three years. It's the patience. I think that as long as I always say this to my to my children and anyone that, you know, I speak to and been on the court with, as long as you're enjoying it and you're embracing the challenge and I think you will achieve what you should achieve. And I think that's probably what I would say for my tennis career. I think I achieved what probably what I should have achieved through hard work.

And, you know, obviously I have my moment and I think everyone has the moment. Yeah, if you just think. Long enough, definitely. Yeah. And that moment is not success. Success is not necessarily being a top 100 or top 10 or winning grand slams. I think it's all relative to your ability, your talent level, your physicality. So someone who reaches 400 in the world that's limited in those errors you can say has achieved as much as a player that maybe is a top 100. You know, I talk about maybe some things that I've learned that if I had my chance again, you know, if I, if I'm starting out as a 20 year old, my advice would always be just because you are lower than someone doesn't mean you are inferior as a person in terms, in terms of mentality.

Because I think even top 50 players, they, they, they are, they can be vulnerable, they, they can have a few issues going on mentally. It's just, it's just being able to deal with certain situations and get back on that gravy train, I guess. And and work hard and try and do better the next day. Excellent. So my first question to you, Barry, thanks for that is what would you say of being the defining transitions in your career and life and how did you navigate them? So obviously you decided to go to the National Training School at Bishop Abbey.

That must have been a major decision. But you know, and and talk us through the the big kind of transitions in your life and how has he matured and that you may be transitioned differently. Yeah, as I touched on really at the start, Ian Barclay was, I mean, obviously had my early coaches which were important to set to set my my technique, a lot of it obviously initially early on, I think you've got to have the love and the passion for the sport. But I sort of think of the fining moments along the way.

Ian Barclay was definitely one of those. He coached Pat Cash to win Wimbledon and he was in charge of the National Tennis School. He only came in when I was 17 years of age. So I think that if Ian or Barkers as we call them, if he'd been around earlier, I think that would have helped in my, in my younger years in terms of me developing as a tennis player. I mean, I look back now and what, why was I doing some of the drills that I was doing aged 1415 and 60 when it was pretty obvious what I needed to be doing.

You know, my, my father was 6 foot two, my brother was 6 foot 4I grew very late. So naturally you'd think, well, you've got to practice the certain right areas of your game, IE7 volley, IE coming forward, IE learning how to where to hit those volleys. So, so he was he was a huge factor. But I would actually say mentally one of the biggest moments, I would say, and I think every athlete kind of has it in a face of adversity. There has to be something along the way. Djokovic has obviously talked about it coming from the country that he's had.

You know, I think Federer had it with one of his coaches who sadly passed away, Peter Carter. I think there are other other athletes that, you know, that they've openly talked about it. But for me, I remember going to South America, it was a 10 week trip. I was 17 years of age. And I think coming from, from the UK, we are, we are spoiled. We, you know, naturally the country that we come from, but ten weeks away in South America was absolutely brutal. It really was, it was, it was taking me into a very uncomfortable position.

And I think that's also key. And, and I remember asking myself the question and man, I had a pretty disastrous, disastrous trip. I got injured a little bit and I wasn't, you know, to be honest, I wasn't very good in, in the big scheme things. But I remember asking myself the question, if this is what I want, this is what's going to have to be. You're going to have to go to places that are uncomfortable. You're going to have to play players that it is more than the matter of life and death. And I remember one instant actually, we were, we were traveling from the first of the first, we were traveling from Venezuela to Bogota.

And we were at the airport and we were in a queue waiting to check in and there were people jumping in front of us. And because it was just, it literally was who could get to the front of the key the quickest. So I'm not saying that you've obviously got to try and jump to the key for the rest of my life, but you can't wait for things to happen. You've got to be able to grab by the script next. So I'd say that was that was an important moment, as was when I struggled for the first couple of years professionally.

I wish I'd gone to American University. I would always advise that for for any good junior, but not a great junior to develop. When I started the momentum, I went on a 12 week trip to the Far East and that was also important for me to learn how to win matches at the lower level. So that was an important moment. And then I think finally was when I they had glandular fever and and in Europe they call it mono unfortunately ended a couple of guys careers. I think Mario Anchich certainly was one of those that.

Thing I think was another. Yeah, absolutely. And it's nothing you can do. And I just couldn't win a match. I couldn't, you know, really struggling. Just that I think that stubbornness and that perseverance was that I wanted to just keep playing until I felt it could last no longer. And obviously, different circumstances now, but very relevant in 2025 with someone like Stan Vavrinka. I mean, 40 years of age, given what he's achieved. And he will never get close to anywhere he'd been before. And actually Djokovic, I read the other day said that he's, you know, he feels he's probably one of the most under appreciated players.

And bearing in mind Vavrinka beat Djokovic 3 times in majors from a set down, you know, I think that Djokovic has only lost five matches in the whole career when he's won the first set in the major. So he was, you know, Vavrinka, he's still at 40 years of age, he's still out there competing because it's something that he loves. So I think there was sort of the defining moments for me. Dave a long the way which kind of helped shape. So it's not always about your greatest moments. Sometimes it's about tough moments that I think really give you.

They may be that little extra edge. So just talk me through some other transitions that happen. Obviously you've spoken about all the most of the transitions in tennis. I don't know if there were any others. But then from tennis into your media career, which obviously was a big transition, just talk me through a little bit how you felt maybe going through any further transitions that happened. And I touched on the going to or not going to American University, which is, which is, I think for me would be the advice that that I would give players now.

And, and, and I'm so pleased to see that it is now very, very popular. And a lot of British players, especially Cam Nori and Jacob Fernley, have really benefited from that. Yeah, I'm really pleased to see that Ollie Bonding has decided to go as well. Well, has he? Well, that's good. Yeah, yeah. So he's going to TCU so well as a little. Congress History. I've done some work with Ollie, and obviously, you know, I did, I did a lot of work with you as well. So yeah, just yeah, carry on. Sorry, I interrupted.

Yeah, so, so I by the time I was playing my best tennis, I think you continue to improve. I mean, naturally a sport where the more hours you put in naturally you should improve, whether it be physically or whether it be technically or tactically. 2728. I've been I've been professional for, you know, near on 10 years. And I think if I had waited those initial of first three years, 18 to 21, going to humane University, then I emotionally, mentally, I think it would have been a little fresher at the ends.

So the back end of, you know, around 2000 and one 2002, which was obviously the year 2001 was when I had my, my match with Sampras. And you know, we might touch on that a little bit later, but you know, mentally I, I was sort of reaching the end a little bit. And that match Sampras gave me obviously a huge boost. And I was thinking about what else I would want to do in the future. And, and for me, it was, it was either coaching or it was going to the media and, and I had the opportunity, first of all, to, to work in the medias.

That's kind of where I am now. You know, I've stuck with it 2023 years of, you know, the second stage. Did you find anything really difficult when you first quit? Emotionally, mentally, or. Yeah, Emotionally, mentally, I mean, in terms of yeah, I mean, obviously you'd played tennis for so long and then suddenly it was no longer a part of your life, even though you were still involved in tennis through the media. Just just talk me a little through what it felt like to basically retire. No, I, I, for me it was very easy because I didn't feel like I left anything behind.

I do get it with some players who feel like they should have achieved more and I can, I can totally see that, that it's quite tough to leave the sport. And, and Austin, the question I was asked of me now, do you still play tennis? And I'm sure you get that and you go well. No, I don't really play that much because actually knows the day I stopped, I was never going to be anyone anywhere as good as I was. And man, I still love hitting tennis balls, but it's not something that I desperately need to do.

And I think a lot of people find that hard to understand for for 20 odd years from age, you know, it's basically 6 to 2728. So it's about 22 years you're stepping on to the tennis court. Obviously initially you love it, but you move from loving it to this is this everyday you get up. I am looking to improve and I think there's a different, I think there's a different mindset personally for me, there might be other people that disagree. There might be, I'm sure plenty of people who agree with me.

So that I found that quite easy to move on from. If, if I had my time again, given the fact that I think a lot of people are playing great tennis into their mid 30s, possibly I could have maybe taken a break. But I was always worried about what was in the future. And, you know, I was really fortunate that I had the option and the offer to go and work for Sky in something that's, you know, I really wanted to do. And yeah, I mean, it was, it was a great opportunity and I've learned so much. Yeah, I do remember we had a discussion, I think we had a discussion about it.

And one of the things I said to you was, you know, the opportunities there. Now, if you do wait, even if people say yes, it'll be open for you, it's not guaranteed. And and you know, if if you don't take the opportunity when it's there, you know, it could be gone and gone for good. You know, I think given an opportunity to immediately get into the media at a good level is quite hard to achieve. So I think I mean. Yeah. And I, I think also that you shouldn't, you shouldn't, I shouldn't forget one of the reasons I did want to stop was it was around that time was the, was the first time I really, I mean, other people never believed I'd be top 100, but I always believed I'd be top 100 or wanted to believe I'd be top 100.

And that was the round the first time that I didn't believe I could be top 100. I felt I was on this sort of never ending treadmill where I was working harder and harder and harder and I was felt the younger players coming up were, were better than me. And I do think that affects your affect your does affect your motivation because once you lose, once you lose, you know, I mean, I, we talked about it, Dave and I often say in commentary, you know, how the smaller details that can decide matches. And you know, Federer, Federer mentioned it a year or two ago.

You know, his greatest year that he ever had was 56% of the points he won. I mean, and we're talking, we're talking 1011 titles. Djokovic, his best year was 11 titles, 3 Grand Slams. He won 56% of the points. You know, doesn't take, it doesn't take much to go from having an average year to a great year. And in my case, it doesn't take much to go from where I was. Well, I think my highest point was about 160. Yeah, one 6200 to to you know, where where it's a great lifestyle to being 303 fifty or hundred, which let's not forget Valentin Vashiro few weeks ago he was out the outside the world's top 200.

And if you haven't got that burning desire of that extra 2 or 3%, then I think that the the game is too tough. It will disappear very quickly, yeah. Yeah. So, so I think that was a main, a main, a main factor. And you know, I guess it's, it's it for that reason this it's where I where I am now. So my next question for you is what do you draw on to make, you know, decisions under pressure? So that's not just in tennis, but in life. You know, obviously I think you would have learned a lot from tennis.

So what, what, what do you think? Where what do you go into? And when you have to make a decision that's really important for your life or pressurized decision, what do you rely? On I think it's a I think it's a great question and I and I think it's the job that I'm doing now where you I think the best, the best people in terms of commentators, stroke pundits are the ones who make their point in a concise, forward way. And it's not what you can say in 20 seconds. Don't make your point for a minute and a half.

And obviously I can't make it in the minute half because I don't have time because the points already started and viewers don't like commentators talking between points. Absolutely, I don't when I'm watching, I don't like, you know, necessarily talking between the points. So I think it's to make it in a concise, straight way, which is very relevant to coaching, as you know, Dave. It's you don't want to go around, you don't want to go around the houses. I think just just making the the point as clear as possible, not confusing the viewer.

Not every TV, not every watcher of tennis is an is an absolute buffing on the sport. You know, you've probably got I don't know, I'm I'm 5% of of our core audience who are absolute tennis diehards. And then you've got the rest who love the sport, but maybe don't don't want to sort of not be brainwashed with with too many numbers and too many too much information. So I think it's just about catering for for everyone. And I think just being confident with with how you say it. And that's always from day one when I started doing what I've what I'm doing, I said I'll be myself and whatever I say is what I would say to that person.

It's just purely my opinion and, and, and I'm sure, you know, I look back, I'm sure there are things that I haven't, I've said that are wrong. I'm sure there are things that I would say in a different way. But we're live TV. I mean, that's the bus, you know, it's not scripted. Obviously I do my really. Do you research that? Do you interpret that as a pressure on you? Yeah, you've gotten used. To it, yeah, yeah, it's a pressure. Of course it's a pressure because because you're only as you're only as good as the last thing you say or you're only you know, if I, if I, for instance, if I go if I'm watching a match.

And let's say we we've pitched forward to the French Open next year and Djokovic is playing and Djokovic has a poor performance and I go on air and I probably need to be careful of mentioning names. Let's let's take Djokovic out of the situation. Let's say I'm commentating on a player and they're not playing well and I'm saying I think times caught up with them. I I think they should retire and then four months later that player is winning matches and winning in Grand Slam. Then I'm. I look a bit of a chump.

Oh, I think you have to be very calculated in not just knee jerk reaction and that's probably the word I'm looking for you. You have to sort of really be considered in in your in your thoughts. I mean, obviously if I really felt it, I, I, I would say it, but it'd. Be very certain in your mind that that. You've got to be, you've got to be simple, but but try and back it up as well. That's that's my style as well. Dave is back it up with facts not to just say I think player X is finished and then not.

So you know, I think player X is finished or I think Player X is or player wise really struggling in 2026 because last year they were, they were winning 94% of their service games. If you look this year, they're only winning 8083% of their service games. And one of the reasons why is their average first serve speed last year was 10 kilometers an hour faster than this year. And we're so, so fortunate that we have working for, for ATP meter especially, we get so much information. Obviously for our job, it's how we use that information.

So yeah, for me, that's why I really, really enjoy that side of just trying to.

You get a feeling and then you and then you Get the facts to back it up. I that's what, yeah, I think that's probably a good way to to say, first of all, you know, with numbers, first of all, I think the important thing is the eye, the eyes got to tell you and then your numbers back it up as opposed to just looking at purely numbers and then saying. Well, your eyes going to see what what you want to see then. By by the way, before people take it the wrong way, Djokovic has still got plenty more to give.

By the way, before people think that I'm I'm actually writing Novak off. Yeah, well, guys, still #3 in the world, yeah. I mean, semi finals of all four majors this year, You know, there's another one. I mean, the motivation he has, amazing, incredible. What player or players journey or journeys has influenced you or maze you or taught you something interesting? So just fairly quick fire on this, but. Michael, do all these things, you know, that's, that question is not scripted. So the first person that came to mind actually, when you said that was David Ferrer.

And there was someone who actually I saw in a challenger in Germany indoors. And I mean, I think the first two shots I saw him hit were miss hits that hit the roof because the court was 2 quicks. And what a, what a career he had. So maybe what he lacked in talent, I think he certainly made-up for in terms of hard work, perseverance, and, and what was the world #3 naturally you're often drawn towards, you know, your, your Djokovic is your Murrays, your Nadals, your Federers, your Alcrezes, your sinners.

You know, these are phenomenal athletes, phenomenal tennis players. Freyo is a phenomenal athlete, but not a phenomenal tennis player. Yes, yeah. And phenomenal work ethic and and you know, one of his defining moments was actually, I think he's this father telling him he needed to stop playing tennis or, or he wanted to stop playing tennis. And he ended up going working on a building site and realized after two weeks actually played tennis was a lot easier than getting up and working on a building site.

So, yeah, he the admiration for someone like Ferrer, you know, going back to, you know, years ago and then and I don't know now really who, who I've got, you know, a lot of admiration for no one really springs to mind. But you know, I think anyone that just pushes himself out there and just works as hard as they can. Yeah, brilliant. What's the most fun thing about your work? I think being it being live, the the buzz of it being live, I don't know as as you don't know which way a tennis match is going to go.

So it's just sort of being having to sort of think on your feet now. It's not scripted that that's the the fun part for me. And I would say seeing how the game is going, I think that's the exciting thing. It was exciting thing with, you know, the Federer, Nadal initially and then obviously Djokovic and Murray came on on the back of that. And so that's for me absolutely fascinating as is. I think the women's game, the way that that is going now. I mean, athletes, how hard they hit the ball. I look at, you know, Rebecca now, she won the fine WTA Finals last last week.

How hard? I mean, she is a killer in terms of the way she serves. So I mean that almost I would say it feels now that if we look at the sport, that's the biggest single development I think now in the women's game. I mean, Serena Williams was the greatest server and and now you we're going on towards back and sorry. Phase. Two, we have phase two and that. And that she's. Yeah. I mean, she's got, at the moment a lot of consistency with that serve as well as pace. And that's it. You know what's it's not.

I mean, football is something, you know, has a huge passion of mine and what managers, what's working now might be out of fashion in 5-10 years. So it's so important for players keep evolving young play. Yeah. And not to not think, oh, well, player X and player Y, that's what they're doing now. To get to top 50, I think you're going to have to have a little bit more. I mean, you know, 20, 20 or 30 years ago, if you had a big serve and a big forehand and a tidy backhand and you were a good competitor, you were going to have a good career.

Now to have a good career, you've got to have a good serve. You had a good four and you've got to have a good backhand. I think you're the, the ability to, to move into the forecourt is going to become even more crucial that you've got to return well, but hang on, you've also got to be an incredible athlete as well. So the. Demands are growing all the time. Yeah, you make sure you you have a lot of layers to your game. Right, got a few quick questions to finish up. What's a column myth or piece of bad advice you hear a lot in your field?

Whoever wants it the most will win. Worst advice for me because that brings anxiety. Yes and anxiety. Anxiety is. That's just not true. It's, you know, genetically and everything like that. There are so many things that go into it. That's that's a fabulous answer. I love it. Who or what has most influenced the way you think about leadership and and leadership? I mean, people have to lead themselves more than anything, you know, and you know, when you're working, you know, or helping your kids, helping lead your kids, you know, you know, leadership is is a very, very broad church.

It's not just, you know, the leader of a company or leader of a a governing body or whatever, so. I think you you were a big influence, Dave. And because for me, what makes a great leader and what makes a great coach, what makes a great manager is I think you have to have that person or that athletes best interests at heart. And I think, yes, you great coaches and great leaders have egos, but I think they're able to park that ego to be able to think about that athlete and worry about that and worry about the athlete in terms of what's going on outside the field, outside the tennis court.

And I think that kids are smart. And I think if a coach doesn't have that, I think you lose the athlete. And I think that for me is so important across life. I think it's across the same thing with with business. I think you have to be tough as a leader, but I think you can only be tough if if you're going to put in in the higher yards as well and make sacrifices. And, you know, I come back to my trip to South America and Billy Knight, who I think if you speak to most people of my era, there is not one person would have a bad word to say about Billy.

Billy was. Yeah, absolutely. And and, and, you know, unbelievable player. I mean, he was tough, as tough as old boots as a player. And and he was running, he ran men's tennis. And, and Billy, you know, Billy didn't Billy with working for the LTA, Billy did not stay in five star hotels. Billy stayed in two star hotels. And Billy was there with me for 10 weeks in South America. So you know, he he had the respect of every player because Billy was very. And you knew even if you didn't didn't agree with his decision, you knew it was coming from the right place.

He really believed in the decision and it was not personally against anybody. It's just what he really believed in. But he had such a deep level of trust in him that even if you disagreed with a decision, you were still OK with it. Yeah. And I do think that's, I do think that's really important that also when you make decisions, you explain what those, how you've come to those decisions. And and I think a tennis player, if a tennis player can't accept those decisions and moans and Waller's in self pity, they're not going to make it.

They're not going to make it anyway. You've got to have that. You've got to have that. I'm going to prove that person wrong. I mean, I think that's one of Murray's greatest strengths, you know? David Beckham as well. I mean, the whole Real Madrid story of David Beckham is phenomenal. What what he endured there to to eventually come through as a as a hero of Real Madrid and. What I find fascinating is if we if we dig a little deeper, is that something that that athlete has always had or is that just something when they're younger flips it?

I think possibly a little bit of both. I'm very open minded actually to to to why the very best athletes create that mindset. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't these things are all very interconnected, but I think you definitely have to have quite a deep level of ambition to be able to endure. And then I think you learn how to endure more and more. It's just like physical, you know, you try your best to get through some tough stuff and then with training you realize, wow, I can get through a lot more.

But yeah, you initially have to have that, that desire to get through at least the tough stuff that you can get through. And then you you get better and better at at enduring. Which which you also you build that mental strength by by the gym work. Yes, yes, yeah. And again, we look at tennis and one of the hardest things about sport, it's so difficult to gauge improvement because it's, it's such a subjective sport. If you are, if you are an athlete, if you, if you are a swimmer, if you are a, I mean even go to a lesser degree, you've actually got the numbers there in front of you.

In tennis, you kind of haven't got the numbers. It just and I think that's where it does, you know, emotionally is really hard. And I think that's where you know, when, when we were we. Were. With Jess. Jess Green, Yes. You know what I would say? Sorry. Yeah, Karen. No, no, I said what I do think really is important. A coach needs to inspire a player to believe that he or she is going forward because it's much easier to train hard and do things when you believe that there's light at the end of the tunnel.

And that vision needs to be put in front of the player and say, you know, if you do this, you know, good stuff can happen and, you know, imagine what it'll be like once you can do this. So I think I think it's very important to inspire players to see light at the end of the tunnel. It's very tough to do all of this if you don't if you don't, if you don't see light at the end of the tunnel. But yeah, I mean, one of the things that Jez and I, I think did so well together is he understood A, understood tennis, but B, he understood what I was trying to do mentally, linking physical training to the mind and and I think that was our big strength as a team.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's amazing how you can the improvement you can make physically in terms of the, you know, we did a lot of track work and running etcetera, etcetera. Just because that next day I'm going to smash, I'm going to smash that PB. Yeah. And if if you, you know, initially, you know, and then obviously when you're when you're playing a match, you know, you know, do again, if you look at some of those amazing Djokovic Nidal matches, you know, that times they must have had nothing left.

They must have had nothing left, but something inside them is like, no, I am going to do it. And then you kind of then you hit that second wind and you and you, you find that little bit extra. And I think then over experience you're able to call upon that further down the line was well, hang on subconsciously that match two years ago when I when it was 3 hours and I was playing the heat and humidity. I still find a way. But you only get to that stage because you're a stubborn so and so, and you've been able to dig in and somehow almost break that mental barrier.

Yeah, absolutely. If you could go back just ten years or so and you were mentoring yourself, is there one bit of advice that you would give yourself? Can I still change that 10 years? No. Can I change that more towards when I was playing? OK? It actually would be to experiment more, I think. I think I was too. You think that crosses over into life as well? Yeah, maybe, maybe. Yeah, I think that there are there are some, there are some people that that are, you know, type of characters will take more risks and be comfortable with it.

And and I wish when I was when I was playing that I had experimented a little bit more. I mean, you know, even even even things of you know, experiment with my strings, experiment with my string tension, experiment with. Fine line with that though. You can start it, become a bit of a test man, and then feel like you never know what you really want. So yes, experiment what? Happens to golfers? What happens to golfers? I think at times golfers overstep that mark. Yeah, yeah, it's a fine line to tread.

Yeah, but. Some tennis players that literally can't decide, they don't know what their best string tension is, for instance, and they always tinkering around with it and they always tinkering around with the weights of their racket and it just becomes a never ending. But yes, I think I think it's important to experiment with your game and see what you can do with your game and maybe have a go at some of the experiments. But I think, yeah, just don't get caught up in experimenting so much that you actually don't know what makes you good.

Yeah, I'm actually one, one of the things I really like and I took it from, I remember listening to to Kumar Sangakkara, who was, you know, anyone that doesn't know, he's was one of the great cricketers for Sri Lanka. And I remember him saying that in an hour session. And I and I think, you know, if we think about what we could potentially do different in terms of when a younger age, he said if I had an hour session, he said my first 15 minutes would be doing the same as what I always do. He said I'll be working on technique, he said.

Then I would experiment for half an hour and then I'd end the last 15 minutes going back to the start I like. That I do like that. Very good. And I think that if sometimes the danger of tennis coaches, if I going back to young players, is that young player, let's say for instance, has that one less than a week, they turn up. What happens is they do the same. Often they do the same week in, week out, week in, week out. So how are you? Are you actually really improving or are you just going over the same on ground?

Obviously it's a repetition sport. So you do need to keep emphasizing the point is it is it? Is it a little bit like riding a bike? You've ridden a bike, learned to ride a bike. Why do you need to have to keep having lessons how to ride a bike? You're surely trying to see how you can get quicker. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just, it's just sort of a no. I think it's a it's a very good point. And I think, yeah, I like it. And I think the analogy you gave with the cricket player is is excellent, right that cause.

Wait, how, how, how is that sport evolved? Yeah, I mean, it's a totally different sport now to where it was. And and a lot of cricketers actually they they are looking at tennis, they look at tennis of the forehand and you think how much risk now the cricketers get. And you know, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that they they can hit the ball absolutely miles because and it's gone from just the straight batters of being defensive of now, you know, I mean that they you know, they it's almost bordering on baseball, isn't it, the way they they're able to connect And but I think that's isn't that the fun part?

There's there's always some. Involvement of sport. Every sport. Brilliant. Well, that concludes the first part and you will get your chance to interview me next. So thank you very much for that. It was very insightful and I'll speak again soon.

The Story