Ian MacDonald | Leadership: How Ian is building Bath Academy

The NFL is back, and Fanduel's got everything you need to. Play your game from same game parlays to live betting right now. New customers bet $5 and get 300 in bonus bets if you win 21 plus and present in Iowa must be first online real money wager $5.00 deposit required. Bonus issued is non withdrawable bonus bets that expires 7 days at the receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com/sports Book Gambling problem called 1800 Bets off. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details.

It's just one of the many places that has your personal info, and if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com/podcasttermsapply

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Definitely my, my experience, I think, I mean, I think when you look at it from a human perspective, it's far easier to to take a tennis player who's a, who's a good tennis player, but not, not nailed on world tennis, world class tennis player or not nailed on superstar.

It's far easier to say why they won't succeed and what they don't do well. And, and it's like you say, there's a huge part there. It's almost self preservation. So it's easier for me to say they won't do it. They don't do it. I'm right. It's far harder to say, do you know what? I'm going to stick my neck out a little bit on the line here and go. You can do this. Let's give years ago, let's not put a limit on it. You know, again, top 100 is this this, you know, this big thing in tennis. But also why?

Why not top 50? Why don't we talk about top 20? Let's not limit it. We don't know. Let's do the work. Let's find out.

Ian MacDonald, Brilliant. You were recommended by Luke Johnson, and here I have you. Good to be here, Good to be here. Talk to myself. Obviously we, we know each other. We've worked together for a long time with the, with the Bath Academy. I've obviously seen a large part of your coaching journey and, and I must say you've, you've done extremely well. And yeah, I'm, I'm very proud of all the work that, that, that, that you've done and do. Thank you. I ask everybody to give their kind of a trailer of their life.

So why don't you just give give the the listeners an idea of, you know, your your background and up to sort of this, this point in time. Yeah. OK. Well, first, thanks for having me, Dave. Nice, nice to be here. Yeah. So sort of an overview of of me. I'll work backwards. So currently I'm the head of performance tennis at the University of Bath. So yeah, in charge of anything to do with the performance side of our program, the support staff and obviously anything, anything in the tennis side of things.

So excuse me, I'm coming to the third year of that now. Before that, I was heading up the pro team to the professional squad of players that we have at Bath, which is obviously the beginning of that is where it was where I met you, Dave. And that's yeah, quite a few years ago now. So I've been in Bath since 2007. I started my coaching career at Millfield. Before that I did I was at university. I was at University of Cardiff. I also did a year in the States in, in Arkansas, yeah, as a sort of my tennis journey.

I was AI was a decent junior, sort of a national, a national standard junior. Yeah, obviously played played from a young age. I did 2 years at Millfield School in the sixth form and then yeah. So that's a quick overview now. So I personally live in Bath, father of 333 kids, which certainly keeps me on my toes when I, when I'm not at work. And yeah, yeah, married, sent to my wife who, yeah, 10 years, 10 years this year, which is a mile which have have flown by, which I suppose is a good thing, isn't it?

I wouldn't dare say anything else, just in case she hears it. She's standing there with a cricket bat behind. It Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Well, you know, yeah. Right. So as you know, my my first question is which two people have influenced your life the most in in your opinion? I know there's changes over time, but what came to your to your head? And only one can be a family member. So who? Who have you chosen? Well, yeah, it's actually, it's a hard question obviously having, you know, come across so many people, work with so many people, obviously so many people on a on a personal side that have contributed to, to to where I am now.

So I think I've sort of cheated, I'm going to cheat a little bit with this answer. So I've kind of got 2 on the personal side and two on the professional side. The, the obvious. I think the main one that, that on the personal side, maybe not the main one, but, but the biggest driver of my tennis when I was young was certainly my dad. He, yeah, he, he, he, he was kind of everything in, in that sense of, of, of what we were trying to do. And, and yeah, the, the time he put into my tennis when when I was a kid was, was, was phenomenal.

And you know, I, I look back on it now and also I think starting learning now being a, being a tennis parent, myself and, and my little one starting to play, you kind of appreciate these things, these things even more. I mean, the hours he gave up, the weekends he gave up was, was, was phenomenal. And I think it's fair to say at times it probably wasn't the easiest, certainly through my through my teenage years. And again, I think his his patience, his resilience, I think his determination as well to sort of to do the best for me, I think is, is is phenomenal.

Maybe he should have been the talents player. Yeah, I think at times I. Mean what? What you're pointing out is all the attributes of talents player. Exactly. Yeah, but it's true. Parents need those attributes. It's, it's and honestly, I think if I think what, what watching a video of him whilst I, whilst I was playing was probably more entertaining than watching me play because I think saying he was a player, I think he did play at every point that that I ever played. And I also think it's the the fact that I, I was never in sort of the favoured group when I was a youngster.

So you know, you know, God, that's how many schemes has been over the years. But when I was a youngest, it was the Rover scheme. I was never, never one of those. And so we're kind of always a little bit on the outside. And but yeah, you gave me just through, through my dad sort of that pushing me and, and getting me to the right places and giving me so many opportunities. I, you know, I ended up beating, beating most of those and getting to a good level. So again, I think that must have taken, taken a lot of resilience.

And yeah, it was he, he, he, he really was the driver, which again opened up the door for so many opportunities I've had in, in later life. So I think he, he certainly was, yeah. He, he, he was huge, I think. One one thing I want to say, I'm sure you guys also had a lot of fun together. We did, we, we had a, we, we did have a huge amount of fun. I, I think also again, we, we, you know, we had some tough times, like, you know, don't get me wrong. And I think when, like I'm sure any tennis, any tennis parent can, can resonate with, you know, there's some car journeys, but we didn't say much.

But but yeah, we had a lot of fun. And, you know, we, we, we went to some, you know, actually do with tennis, some, some very interesting places around, around this country. And yeah, we, I mean, we spent so much time together and yeah, it, it was, it was great. And I think actually probably when, when I went to Millfield for the, for the two years, I think there was in some ways maybe a little bit of relief because he didn't have to do it every weekend, but he could. I think he also, he also missed that a little bit as well.

So I think that was, that was kind of an interesting time to go from from really him being the one driving it to then not having, having as much control. I think was, was an interesting time. But yeah, we, we did, we did have a lot of fun and, and we had, we had, we had some great times and some, some memories. And again, I can remember matches and centres that that I played from, from God, like, you know, we're talking about 35 years ago now. So it, it's it, it was amazing. And yeah, it, it's yeah, I certainly, I certainly wouldn't have been be here where in my career, I wouldn't be here where I am now with, without the time that he put into it.

So it's, it's something I to be honest, something I probably should thank him more for and and and things, but. Appreciation project. Exactly. Yeah, No, it is. I think, I think, I mean I, I'm pretty sure I have, but it's. Well, I'm sure if he watches this, he will. He will. I'll have to give him the link if he knows how to work it. Yeah. So, so that, that, yeah, certainly in my, in my younger years was, was, was my dad. I think in on, on a personal side, obviously later as you as, as I've, I've grown in, in my coaching life list, my wife, I think has, has, has been incredible.

I mean, you know what it's like being, being a performance coach is not easy to, for, for personal life and, and relationships and that side of things. So I think it's, yeah, she, she's been been obviously incredibly strong and, and, and supportive, unbelievably good at bouncing ideas off her. She's she's always got got an idea and more often than not proves and points out that I'm wrong, which although is, is, is wonderful, can be a bit frustrating at times because she's she's she's normally better than me, but but yeah, she's been brilliant.

And, and and that's, you know, that's, that's something. Yeah, certainly I think it's very hard to to be a performance coach and all that comes with that without, without having that, that support. And that's yeah, at home. So, so, yeah. So, so I think that personally, those, those two have obviously been, been, been huge. And as I say, you know, there's, there's, there's plenty of others there. But but yeah, those, those two have been, have been, you know, fantastic. I think that on the professional side, there's, there's two that spring out, you know, really stand out for me and, and, and both since I've been at Bath.

So first I think it was my old boss Baz said, Barry Scolo. So we he brought me to Bath actually back in 2007 when it Bath was the National Centre and it it it changed status to. High performance club. I think it was high performance centre or international high performance centre back then. That's. Right. So many times I think we're an IHPCI think that's what that. That's international high performance. Centre, yeah, it got it got down to so yeah, he brought me in it it, it was a gamble all round in many ways.

You know, I came to Bath now 18 years ago. I came to Bath on a three month contract. So I took a gamble to, to leave Milford where I was. I felt like it was the right time. I felt like I was ready to, to do something different. Baz at the time was sort of interim head of the program, but nothing in that sense for him, nothing was official. And then I think it was the January, I came in the September, I think it was the January. Then it became official that he he took over was, was officially in charge.

Then obviously that made my contract official. And yeah, you know, a lot of it. We, we, you know, Baz was a young, a young head of the, you know, young leader of the program. And obviously I was a young coach. So we did a lot of learning, a lot of learning together. It was this sort of a lot of exploration of, of, of where we take things, how we do things. But I look back at him and him as a leader and, and, and my boss. And I think he, he always, he struck a great balance with me obviously being, you know, ambitious.

I, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to, to go for it. He found a really good balance of sort of giving me space and, and giving me the reins to go for it. But equally I always knew he was, he was supportive and also I knew he'd give me a kick up the backside if, if I was out of line. And I think the way he kind of struck that balance of, of, you know, the freedom gave me the chance to lead, gave me the chance to make mistakes. But equally was always there, always there for me. Always again would would offer advice and and you kind of always, always felt I had my back.

I think was was was really great, great leadership. And again, I think it's. Yeah, I think, I think you had an unbelievable talent for that. Yeah. And again, I think it's it's now leading and and also leading ambitious coaches. It can be quite challenging it it's when people want to push and people want to go and, and they, they really have that drive that that does, that does bring challenges and that can bring uncomfortable moments. But Baz always found a way to be, to be pretty comfortable with that.

And, and I always felt Baz was very open as well about sort of being happy, having experts or people who know more than him around him. And I think that was just a brilliant part of leadership. And certainly that's something I've I've taken And obviously part of that, you know, you, you brought yourself in probably 3-2 or three years into sort of mining Baz. End of 2009 it was. Yeah. So just just over a couple of years in and and that's where I think, you know, just I think he was brilliant and and again, very, very secure in himself saying let's bring let's bring in, you know, you know, an expert, someone who's been around and done, done a bit more than us in in the game.

And I think that that as a leader, I thought was just a just a brilliant trait. And yeah, so. You had to bring me in because we met in a service station and we, we, we talked for more than two hours. So we both got fined £150. You can't say no now because you owe me. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, too good. I mean, yeah. What what great things haven't started in a service station on the motorway? Hey. But you know, it's Yeah, he was, he was great. And, and still, still, still a good friend now and, and still, yeah, still, you know, he, he, he still offers me, offers me support and, and help and I can always, always give him a ring.

And we, you know, we keep in touch and, and still have a, a good amount of crossover. So he was brilliant. Yeah, he was brilliant for me as as a coach and, and let me do what I want. But also I think I've taken, I've, I've taken a lot of, of what he taught me as a leader into my leadership now. So, so, so he was great. The next person on a professional side obviously was was yourself, Dave. Yeah, I've been coaching for five, coming up six years. I think when, when we met, I started in, in 2004 properly coaching.

So I was, yeah, I had a level of success when I, when I, when I met YOS coaching some good juniors who yeah, they were, they were, they were international level juniors. I was ambitious, you know, I, I wanted to, I wanted to, to really go for it. I think a lot of the coaching was coming, was coming, you know, quite natural to me and, and, and I built a good rapport with these players. But I think on, on reflection and then and then meeting you, I think I had lots of good ideas. I was prepared to try these ideas.

I think piercing it together and fitting it together is where I, I needed the help. And I think I, I didn't, I didn't totally get the whole process and quite, yeah, quite how things came together. I say, you know, I look back on it and I can remember some of the drills I was doing as a younger coach. I still do now. And I kind of knew I was somewhere along the right lines, but it just didn't quite get the whole picture and the whole piece. And that's where I needed that. Yeah. That experience that that mentor to come in and just sort of, yeah, build on and build on what I'd begun and.

And yeah. Painting the picture Fully understand aspects of the game which which I hadn't, I hadn't been, I hadn't almost ever experienced or fully understood aspects of coaching. You know, as, as you know, I was as a young coach, as ambitious, but I was, I was pampering to the players. I was doing, you know, trying to do everything and and, and, you know, again, I had a level of success at that time. I almost didn't know any any different. But you look back and you think, well, you know, I had, I had so much to learn at that young age.

But you need someone to come along and help you. You know that you need somebody to come and open your mind to the learning, someone who can, can help you can show you again. I think it's a bit a bit like I said about bars. I think you, you, you, you did it very well with me where you kind of you gave me a bit of rope. Try it, have a go. No pull you back. Let me fail, come back. Don't let me fail too big or at the wrong time. Yeah. Again, I think it's it's, it's it's not easy doing those things with.

No, but I think, I think by the time I came to Bath, I'd really honed my skills. And, and I remember back when I was coaching a Dutch girl, Amy and I was, we were in Spain and Eric Van Harpen was their coach, Conchita Martinez, who eventually won Wimbledon. And I remember thinking in my head, this guy is not very good because they would play practice sets together, you know, and I was very keen and eager and I'd be, you know, talking to her quite a lot. And he sat in the umpire's chair and watched the set.

And like, you know, once he, he, he called over and said something to her. And then at the end, he said a couple of things to her and that was it. I thought, this guy is not even a coach. But of course, in hindsight, you know, you learn that just saying the right thing at the right time is all that's necessary. And, and I certainly, you know, over coach in, in, in my early days. So it's, it's a very common thing. And, and I think, and I, I think I remember saying to you, you know, if, if, if you take on board what I'm saying to you here, you know, you will be a brilliant coach, so much younger than than than I was, because you, you know, you, as you say, you need somebody to, to put that through to you.

And, and I kind of had to learn through a few years of hard experience to realize that that I was over coaching, you know, good stuff, but you paralyze the brain if if they've got too much inside, you know, and and you're pushing too many things into into players heads. So you know what, what you were struggling with is, is, is is very normal. And I think coaches out there, you know, if I could give any little bit of advice to young coaches is you're probably over coaching and, you know, try to try to maybe get around an experienced coach and see, you know, what it's like.

But if you can't get around an experienced coach, then just think very carefully about how much you speak to a player and and how much you get involved in in sort of every point when they're playing and stuff like that. But yeah, sorry, I interrupted Carol. No, I mean, I, I say that, you know, that's obviously yeah, the the work that we've. We've done and, you know, our relationships evolved over over the years, certainly. And it's it's yeah, it's been great. I think it's it's there's, there's you know, I've been around, you know, I've been around seeing some, some other good coaches and I've learned from them.

But I think it was I think the point that you you sort of touched on there, you said to me fairly early. So you know, my goal is to make you a better coach than I am at a younger age. And I think that that was a really is a really key bit with, with the mentoring side of things, because I think you can go and speak to experienced coaches. I think you can, you can take a lot from the, the, the experienced coaches, but a lot of them are still, it's about them. So you're listening to what they say and you're picking it up, but it's still about them.

They're not so interested in your development. They're interested about everyone thinking that they're the best coach and they know everything. Whereas I, I felt like you did have my interest and my coaching at heart. So, and obviously, you know, that still involves a lot of, of, of listening and, and, and picking up what, what you said and watching how you operate. But I think that's, that did resonate with me just like, OK, yeah, you might give me a kick up the, the backside when I, when I need it or, or, you know, call me out if I'm, if I'm talking talking rubbish.

But it is it, it is, it's at the best interests of me as opposed to being called out by someone because they're just trying to show you up and highlight the fact you don't know something. And I think that's something that that's certainly I've taken, you know, taken into now being that being a mentor and helping the younger coaches, I think is a is a really important bit because I think that's, you know, something I'll touch on a bit. And, and in one of the later questions as well, getting people on your side once, once people know you're on the side, once people know that you believe in them, that's actually how you can be far tougher and get into far more quality conversations and, and tougher points and really highlighted than someone who kind of you just feel like she's having a go at you and trying to show you up.

And then you kind of almost you, you back away from that. So I think that, yeah, that, that, that feeling and, and certainly that, you know, that comment stuck with me. I mean, you must have said that to me about 1415 years ago. So that's that that's stuck with me for for many years. And yeah, now as, as you know, hopefully, I hope the younger coaches. And now you're a better coach than me. No, no, not unless you was an. Age. Absolutely not, not at all. And and I think that was in no way do I feel that and and and obviously you know, as as you.

Do you judge that? Anyway? We all, we all have our own style and everything. Exactly. But I also think it's that you know, as, as, as you've, you know, you've shown and continue to show you never stop learning, right? You're always trying to something new, trying to find something different, try a different Ave., pick up something here or there and so. And the game evolves. So what what worked for me, you know, 7-8 years ago would not work very well now. You know, the principles are still the same.

But, you know, in, in many ways, you know, I feel like the tennis tour in total is caught up to some of my methods and, and even surpassed it. And so you have to really reflect and think about what the modern game is and, and evolve your coaching. You know, otherwise it's very easy to become a dinosaur very, very quickly. So yeah, you you have to keep your, your, your, your finger on the pulse. But I think what you said there is very important. I think players feel the same thing is, you know, always say a committed coach that a player knows cares is is probably better for them than than a great coach who who doesn't really care.

Because it it's very difficult to to take on board anything when when you feel like you know the the other person doesn't really care whether you you get it or don't. They don't care what you know until they know that you care. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah. So, so moving on, what sort of event or conversation maybe happen in your life? And, and again, you know, if you look back, there'll be several conversations or several events that happened that obviously move your life in a certain direction.

But if anyone kind of stands out for you or you know, at this particular moment, you know, in a couple of years that may change or whatever, but but that kind of shaped you, altered your perception, whatever. Yeah. Again, it's an interesting question because I kind of reflected on this and I think the major thing that's changed my perception, and I'll touch on this actually a little bit more in a minute, But I think the major thing that's changed my perception on, on, on things and my professional life obviously has been my kids.

But I think if we go sort of perform my kids as to still to the largest chunk of my coaching career, I don't think actually I'd realised how much the past had shaped me in, in, in what I did and, and, and how I coach. And I think, again, you know, we go back to, to some of the things I was saying about my dad. And that's the idea of I was always I was always a junior. I always felt like a bit of an underdog. I, I was always like the outsider in that sense. I was never part of the, the main group and that, that, yeah, almost that underdog spirit.

So I was always kind of out to, I felt like I was almost out to prove myself. I had to prove that I could beat those guys that were that were part of the sort of part of the establishment in some ways, which sounds more dramatic than it is, but but I think that that has definitely come through into my coaching far more than I realised and I didn't. It's not like that I've ever sat there and thought I'm the underdog, right? Let's go out and and prove it. But that's certainly something that that has has has has come through in my coaching and that determination to get those players to succeed.

Again, just probably, you know, probably a lot of the players have have succeeded beyond their expectations. And that, that idea of that real yeah, that that drive to, to, to push them and to get the best out of them and to be that person to really help them to, to kind of make a name for themselves and ultimately also help help me make a name for myself. So I think that side of it and, and again, going back to some of the things that that, that my dad told me, that determination, that resilience, they that certainly comes through in, in my coaching.

And again, that's only through through reflection that I say that's not something that was intentional. I think that's just something that that that was in me. I think the other thing that's been massive in my in my coaching is something I didn't feel I got actually from coaches when I was younger. I felt, you know, I said my dad was, was was unbelievable at where he got me in the in the job He did what I think I lacked as a junior, as a junior player, as a talented junior kid who who who could have, who could have been decent.

I'm not saying, you know, world class, but could have been decent. I think I really lack someone to sit down with me and sort of share that vision and share that, share that idea, share that journey, show that the the coaches believed in me, but but never really shared the whole vision of of what I could do or where I could go to again, get me to buy into what I need to do to do it. So it was almost quite sort of small and not small mind is wrong. And I don't want any of the coaches to to to feel like that's negative because there's some amazing people and it helped me so much.

But I just laughed at someone and say, right, actually, if you sort it out and you pull this together and you get your, you know, you get your stuff in in order. Inspiration. Yeah, a little bit of that There's there's there was no reason why I couldn't have been a very, very good tennis player. And some of the guys that I was beating at juniors ended up having, having successful tennis careers. And I think not having that is something I try to do quite strongly with players these days. Is, is, is the vision of, of, of painting the picture of, of showing them.

And again, I'll touch on this again. It's, it's kind of crossing over a bit into, into, into my beliefs a little bit about showing them the way. Yeah. And trying to inspire them to want to, to really explore what they, what they can do. What are the possibilities or, or, or go, you know, almost just just go for it. You know, here's a reason why you can be good. Let's go for it and let's see where the journey takes us. And you look at some of the players I've worked with, you know, their journey's gone far, far further than they thought they would, they would ever be able to achieve.

And that's that's I just think that's that's amazing. And I think that's again, that's something that that that that I probably didn't have. And again, you know, I had some brilliant coaches when I was young and and so many things they did have also helped me in in my coaching. Whether do you think had a had that? I'd had that from someone I think that that would help me. So I think that's. As you know, I, I wrote a book and, and one of my things is you need to paint the dream and then kind of forget about, say, look, this is where you can go.

Now let's let's do the work together. Yeah, yeah. But I think that that gives the the real purpose to the work, doesn't it? I'm going somewhere and I needed that as opposed to, you know, I was quite hot headed as a player and everyone said, oh, you know, sort it out, stop being a hot head. Yeah, great. But I think had someone really painted the picture of why, if you can do this, if you buy into this, I think that's so much more powerful than just do this or stop doing this. Yeah. It's, it's, it's hugely powerful, especially well, it's, it's hugely powerful for everybody.

I think to, to, to have something that they're, that they're aiming for that that is inspiring, you know, not, you know, the, the smaller goal is important because it's one step towards a bigger goal, but you've got to really believe in the bigger goal. So the sacrifices of the smaller steps feel worth it, gives you that extra motivation to do the tough yards really. Yeah, no, yeah, 100%. And then that's yeah. So I think that's yeah, I think that not having that is certainly, yeah. In fact, you know, I didn't have that in my playing career.

And as I said, you know, I'm not sat here saying I'd have been a world class player. So probably not having that saved me a lot of a lot of time, money and effort. And it's definitely benefited my coaching. Because I think, I think one of the things that, that, you know, I, I didn't realise and, and, and, and things that I, that I do far more is, is I reflect on things. And, and I started, I did a master's a few years back just at the end of COVID. And, and I realise then how much I reflect on things.

And, and that was kind of when I started to piece things together. Actually. There's a lot of what I've done in the past has, has factored into, into the way I am now. So I think that's, yeah, I think those, those, those themes have come from me as a player amazed. Yeah, I said some of the work from my dad and then into into my coaching I think has been has been strong. Yeah, they've become drivers. Things that helped you back possibly have become drivers to push others forward. Yeah, yeah. And then yeah, I think the, the, the sort of biggest event in my life that, you know, I'm, I'm very, you know, I'm, I've lived a very fortunate life.

I haven't, you know, I haven't, I haven't had a hugely negative event where I've lost, lost someone close or that's changed, changed anything or, or changed the way I, you know, the way I the way I do things or the way I see things or the way I believe in things. But, but, but the kids definitely has, has put a different, a different perspective on things, a different slant on things. I think, you know, I go back to when to when my, my first was born, which is he's 9 now. You know, I'm still kind of pretty much all out go, go, go then.

And kind of steadily, especially when I have the second and, and, and, you know, the third, I'd already changed, changed sort of tack a little bit by then, but it, it did put a different perspective on it. And I think it really made me, made me question whether I want to, you know, do I, do I the, the dream of taking a player to the top of the game, which I was, was obviously working towards trying to do. And it, when I look at what that entailed, you know, the, as you know, the 30 weeks, 35 weeks on the road at that time, it's like, no, that, that's, that's not where I where I want to sort of be right now.

And don't get me wrong, I'm sat at home sometimes and the ego part of me goes, I should be on the tour. I think I could work with that player. I think I could improve that player. But ultimately, I know sitting at home going, I could be on the tour. I believe I can be on the tour is not as strong a feeling as being on the tour going I should be at home with my kids. So that was that was that was something then. OK, so then that made me reflect and I go, well, I haven't lost my ambition. I haven't lost my drive, so I need to re channel that into into into a different into a different route.

So then obviously becoming a leader of the program and taking on all of that that that that entails, which is, you know, which is, which is huge and learning how how to become a real leader and. But also helping all of the younger coaches exactly about those responsibilities to achieve their dreams. Yes, yeah, yeah. And that's. You know, and you know, I think that's, that's a powerful driver as well because you know, yeah, I see the, you know, the young coach in the program thriving, you know, seeing Tianan and stuff, you know, and Jordan and you know, and all the coaches really the young coaches, you know, thriving and their kids doing well.

And, and so that, you know, if you can have anything helpful to share with them to, to, to help their journey, I think that that is, that is a fantastic achievement in itself as well. I mean it's. I do, I do feel, I feel quite, I suppose, I suppose lucky in a sense. I think I managed to. There's definitely a bit of soul searching around that time. You know, what do I want to do? Where do I want to go? How do I, how do I want to, how do I want to do it? And COVID was kind of when it, when these thoughts were kicking in, it was, yeah, the COVID kicked in.

So like I had that time at home. I was forced, you know, I can remember I was, I was travelling with, with Sam and she was on a great run and she got to straight and open. That was a tough trip. She, she wasn't fit on that one. But then we came home and we're off again and, and then stuff. And it was like got I've been on the road a lot here. And then COVID hit. So we got back from, I remember I got back from Sunderland, she just started to find the form again and she went off to South Africa and she did the first week in South Africa.

She won that week actually. And then basically that was it, COVID hit. So, you know, kind of the, the world stopped. And I think in some ways that was, that was a real blessing in disguise for me because it, it gave me a bit of time just to, you know, kind of decompressible and, and, and think a little bit here. Well, you know, I've got 2 little ones now I'm, I'm away a lot. I'm loving it. But equally, what's, where's this going to go? What's the next step? So having a bit of time in COVID, then obviously coming back and then, yeah, then, you know, that has changed his, his plans and his ideas.

Then to then he, he moved somewhere else. Then I, you know, got to, got to, got to take his role. So I got, I kind of got lucky with a few things, but also I think I've, I'm, I'm quite lucky in the sense I think I've been able to get perspective on things. I think this is where Lis is brilliant with me because she, she bounces the ideas off. I can bounce the ideas off her and she helps me with it. So I managed to gain perspective on that. And I, I gain perspective on the fact that I can still channel my ambition and my drive, just in a different way.

And I think that can be quite tough for people because they kind of they, they. Yeah, it's. A little bit like an identity change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they can get a bit lost and then they can maybe maybe not feel as driven or as motivated. So yeah, that could have been I think quite, quite a challenging time. And to say in that sense, certain things, I think actually, obviously not by design, you know, COVID obviously, but it, you know, in, I think actually with hindsight, it did it, it did help me.

It did give me a bit of space to, to, to reflect and, and, and, and change, change my mindset a little bit on things. And then, and then luckily, yeah, for me as well, obviously, you know, didn't want Baz to leave at all, you know, and, and still miss working with him. But actually did in the end work out quite, quite well for my career because that that offered me a chance to stay where, where my, where I want to be. And, you know, love, love living here, but but also go in a slightly different direction.

So stroke of luck and and things that yeah also paid, paid in the end has worked out, worked out well. That's great, Maka. And my last question to you is, what do you believe are your superpowers and you know the, you know your key beliefs that are your foundation as as a person really and as a coach? Yeah, I found that interesting. I suppose this this may be, shows my silly sense of humour when you talk about superpowers. I was like, well, no, I'm not going into Bath and my Cape on, but I I think yeah, superpowers are, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm not sure about superpowers, but yeah, I think my I mean.

It's another word for strength, really. Yeah. I think yeah, it's yeah. I think my strengths, I think I'm, I'm a positive person. I'm I'm a very positive person. And I think when you look at my career coaching wise, I have worked with a lot of players that, that, that, that when I was working with the pros, they obviously tend to have come out of college and they were, they, they'd invested a lot in tennis and a lot of them said, right, you know, I want to, I want to carry on my tennis journey. I want to play pro.

Did a lot of them truly believe they can get to the top of the game? Probably not. They they just they, they enjoyed it, they loved it and and they wanted to find out. But I think when I, when, when I looked at the players and I and I thought about their journeys, I think quite quickly I got this like coach from the point of view of looking at someone and going, OK, these are the reasons that you can make it. Whereas I suppose I genuinely, and that might sound common sense, but I do think generally people look at players and go, well, these are the reasons why you're not going to make it.

And, and I've always looked at those players saying, OK, This is why you can make it. You have these raw materials that This is why you can be good at on this journey. And this is what we've got to explore. And this is what we've, we've got to find out. But there's a genuine reason why you're here and there's a genuine shot at becoming a, a, a world class tennis player. And I think because of that, I, I'm, I'm, that's how you can build belief in a player. And it's that we touch upon it in an, in an earlier point.

Excuse me that when you're coaching from a positive, you're coaching from. An angle that you believe in someone you can then start to unpick really what needs to happen because they're going, OK, this guy's person does believe in me. He does want me to do well. He thinks I can do well. So let's get into really what is needed to do that. And I think that's LED into to me as a person is I'm very much a solutions over problem person. I, I, I, I don't tolerate very well people feeling sorry for themselves.

I'm like, accept something, find a solution, let's go again. So I think that having that, you know, taking that kind of mindset of going, OK, this is where we are. This is the, the, the way to get forward. You can do this. These are the solutions. Now let's let's go to work. And I think that. Would I wanted to just interject you and ask this question? Would you say that? And certainly in my experience,

too many coaches are caught up in effectively top 100, top 50, and it's very easy to dismiss a player and say, well, they don't really have what it takes to get to that level. So there's no real point. And, you know, I mean, two things. I've always found that very arrogant because you just don't know, you know, when when we're talking about players that are coming back from college and some of them that that they're pretty damn good tennis players already. It's not like they're not talented and and don't have a lot of attributes.

So I think, you know, when you say people, you know, there's no point. They can't. It's it's a very easy thing to say because, you know, very few people do make it. So you're going to be right most of the time. And I almost think that sometimes coaches, you know, take pride in being right and saying this person want make it, whatever that is. And they don't even define what make it is. And and of course they can say, yeah, well, I was right. I don't see that as the job. I've always seen the job as you look at what people have got and, and then if, if I could form a vision of my head of how they could play and it looked pretty damn good in my head, then I was like, right, let's go for it.

So my question is, you know, your, your positivity with that which you know, clearly I I agree with, you know, is that your experience that, that, that there's not that many coaches that will come from the angle of looking for all the reasons why somebody can succeed and come more from, you know, looking first at the the reasons why they can't. Yeah, definitely my my experience. I think, I mean, I think when you look at it from a, a human perspective, it's, it's far easier to, to, to take a tennis player who's a, who's a good tennis player, but not, not nailed on world tennis, world class tennis player or not nailed on superstar.

It's far easier to say why they won't succeed and what they don't do well. And, and it's, it's like you said, there's a huge part there. It's almost self preservation. So it's easier for me to say they won't do it. They don't do it. I'm right. It's far harder to say, do you know what? I'm going to stick my neck out a little bit on the line here and go. You can do this. Let's give this a go. Yeah, let's not put a limit on it. You know, again, top 100 is this this, you know, this this big thing in tennis, but also why why not top 50?

Why don't we talk about top 20? Let's not limit it. We don't know. Let's do the work. Let's find out and let's accept where we are. I think is, you know, there's there's no, again, there's no, there's no BS. There's no BS from me that I'm, I'm stood there going, I'm a superstar coach and everything I say is, is that I'm saying this is this is the vision that I have for you. This is where we can go. These are my beliefs. This is this is what I see good tennis. As for you, let's do the work, let's do the work.

And I think if you then you know, again, you built that pit, you, you built that vision, you built that picture. And then you just every day, you just you do the work, you do the work. That's when when, when good things can happen. But it is, it is far easier to to judge. You're not you, you're not going to be this because of this, this, this, this. Well, you can watch any tennis player in the world. You can watch, you know, you can watch the best tennis players in the world right now. You can sit on your armchair and you could say, ah, that could be better.

That's not tennis coaching. Tennis coaching is, is, is finding the solutions, is working with people. It's working with them to, to, to find ways to improve and to, to overcome challenges and to, to build on strengths and, and develop, develop the areas that can be developed. So that's what coaching is. It's getting under the skin of people and going, I have a belief in you that you can be, you can be something. So, you know, let's, let's give that a go. And, and as long as then I think, I think another strength I, I, I seem to have, I think is building relationships.

I think I, I, I have a way, I think maybe again, from the positivity, from building belief in people, certain people might say I'm, I'm quite a good fun to be with as well, is that I have a good, a good way of getting people on side and yeah, and, and building a relationship. I also think a key thing with with me is I think I'm, I'm quite authentic in, in, in being me. I'm not going to, I'm not going to be SU. I'm not going to to come with stuff that that I don't believe is true. I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong.

I'm happy to admit that maybe there's areas of weakness that in my knowledge or in my expertise. But I think having that just authenticity about about, you know, there is a belief in me that I think you can do something, whether that be working with a coach, whether that be, you know, developing Bath as an Academy or, or, or certainly when I was when I was working with players that you know, that that's that's what that's generally, generally I believe. And and and then, you know, going sort of having that, having that passion then to.

You can deliver, you can build the relationships. It's a lot easier to to convey that belief into yeah, other people. And and you know, you know, I think, you know, you can remember when, when when I started Bath, I used to have the individuals with the coaches every sort of quarter. Yeah. And it was in those one to ones where I'd say the real relationships were were built and the trust is built there. And as long as you don't do things to break that trust, then then the belief in what you're trying to do and what they're trying to do is is very strong.

Yeah, that's. Brilliant. There's I'd say there's a couple of other things that that that springs my mind with with that, again, I think I, I, you know, I believe in myself as a coach. I, I think I'm, I, I on the whole, others might disagree, but on the whole, I think I keep the, the ego ego in check and I think something I'm quite good. And again, maybe this is this is something that that that I built younger, not sort of being part of the, the main group is that I, I think I'm good at sort of at seeing and hearing before, before speaking.

Sometimes, you know, I'm, I'm good at I'll listen. I, I'll watch, I'll look, I'll try to understand and then you know, then, then I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, then I, I'll, I'll form an opinion on those things. And I think some people again, just fly in. It's all about them. I know this, I know that, you know, and, and, and that's something I think that, that I'm, I'm, I'm quite good at as well. And I also think the other thing as well. And, and it ties in with the, the first point about, about building belief is tennis is, you know, obviously, as you know, is, is a, is a nut sport where every week pretty much you get told you're not good enough.

You know, you, you lose a match. It, it's tennis is a game that's based around failure. You're just trying to fail forward a little bit more and a little bit more. So you know, you you have to be incredibly resilient and strong in your beliefs and, and being brave and still saying, well, actually, just because you lost a tennis match, it doesn't change what you can do. It doesn't change what I can see. You just didn't get it right then and. Just sometimes it's really tough when you travel all the way to Australia and you're there for two matches.

It's I mean, it's it is. It is. I mean it's it's. It's so that's real resilience. Easy. You know, it's, it is, it's, it's crazy, but it's, you know what, you can have it. Certainly when you're, you're building in your first year as a pro, you know, you can take 30 losses and it can still be a great year. I mean, that's brutal. You know, you think about any other sport where where someone takes 30 losses, you know, you're going to have someone sack, they're going to, you know, they're going to lose their job or whatever it be.

But but in tennis, you can still have a have a good year. And I think the other thing as well that that goes with, with the journey and, and building these players is there's, there's that high level of sort of monotony. Really you've got to just keep going, keep doing it, keep doing it, keep doing it, keep doing it. And you know, and then, you know, then you get, you get your little breakthrough. Don't you have your little, you know they've got it right for a week or they've got it right for a match or they've got it right for something and that you know that that kind of gives you enough spot, but it's here.

We go. Here we go. Exactly. Then, then then you're not, you're not down again. But it's, it's, you know, it, it, it when you, when you, when you see it, you know, you've got to stay brave. You've got to stay strong. And, and, and in that sense, you know, believe in yourself and, and, and, and, and, and also be prepared to try things to, to, to unlock it. And I think it's, yeah. And that again, comes back to the point, isn't it as far easier to say, no, you won't do it or you, you didn't do it, but you know, it's because of you or it's because of this.

And it's going well. All right. If I see something new, I'm going to do my, you know, everything I can to to try to unlock that. And that's, yeah, that's, you know, day after day. I think, I think, I think everybody in general underestimates the time that that takes. Yeah, and, and just the, the, the, yeah, the, the, the, the constant disappointment go again. Disappointment go again. And ultimately. You know, people think they see players at the very highest level, but I mean, you know, players at the very highest level for, for where they're at, You know, they can feel like they're failing because they're not finding a way to, to jump to the next level.

You know, from 8:00 to 4:00 or 4:00 to 2:00 or, you know, and, and, and so you know, it, it, it's all relative, but it, it is, you know, the same shit, just a different level. And the understanding is obviously at A at a different level as well. But the monotony is it's generally the same problems, just at a more and more sophisticated level. Yeah, yeah. And again, I think that that, you know, that we've been lucky and we with, with obviously having so many greats of our sport and potentially we've got, we've got 2 new ones that are coming through.

But they, they, as you say, they're constantly showing us the the what, what you've got to go through. I mean, look, you know, look at Sinner, he's just lost the match point. I mean, he was killing Alcrez in the final, the French lost the match. Everyone's like, you know how amazing Alcaraz, you know, Wilson Sinn has not beaten him for for however long now. And then what, 4 weeks later he's in the final woman and here we go again. Here's here's your chance. And look what he did. He overcame it and, and, and you know, he, he was, I thought he was by far the better player in that final.

I mean Alcaraz, you know, he had the disappointment of Australia. You know, he was talking about how I lost, lost my fun, lost that side of it. He's then come back obviously then he has then he wins the French, you know, and again, an amazing achievement. So, and again, I'd be, I'd be fascinated to know from the top guys, but you know, you take, you take a lot of them. You, you know, you take Federer, however he won, he won 20 Grand Slams. I'd be interested in if he talks more about the 20 grand Slams or the grand Slams he lost, knowing he should have won, you know, the match point against Djokovic, the final when he, when everyone thought and probably he'll, he would have said I should have beaten Del Potro in the final of the US.

It's things like that, you know, and again, that's, that's, that's why these guys were, were so great. It's because that constant drive to to be better. McEnroe and the French. There you go. You find, you know, you just, it just keeps, keeps you going. And it's in that sense, you know, that's supposed when you look at it, it is, it's an obsession, isn't it? It's, it's constant. You just, you just want to find that next, that next thing, that next little breakthrough, that next, that next bit of success.

But it's but I think you as you, the more you do it also you do realise and probably when you step away from it a bit, you realise that actually that's almost more the fun bit. It's not holding the trophy and having to win is fantastic. But equally it's like, well actually the Thunder is going, what are we going to do next? How are we? Going to well, it's only the one 1% on the top of the, the journey. You know, those, those moments, you know, obviously for the greats, it's maybe 2% but or 3%. But but for for every other player, it's, you know, it's it's a lot more lows than they are highs.

But the highs will wipe out a lot of lows. And that's and that's why they do it. Yeah. And why we do or or done it. Great. Thanks very much, Macca, and thanks. For having me. Next week it will be your chance to ask me the question. Put you in the hot seat. Sorry. I said I'll put you in the hot seat. You put me in the hot seat. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Thanks. For cheers. Thanks for watching Locker Room Power with David Samuel. If you enjoyed the episode, hit subscribe and leave a comment on your favorite platform.

See you in the next one. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

The Story